Coloring inside the lines

[bridgetwu75]

Okay, this isn't really about coloring inside the lines. It's just the example I'm using. I just finished reading a book called, Nurture Shock, and in this book one of the things they touch on is how American parents tend to focus so much on building self esteem that they are afraid to correct their children, or let them know they expect more of them. It has really made me think about the way I approach Savana.
She is totally capable of coloring in the lines. Sometimes when she's not into it, she just half heartedly scribbles without any concentration or effort. So I tell her calmly that if she doesn't have the energy to do it, she can put it away and do it later when she can give it her best. Often she argues a bit but in the end she always puts it away.
So am I sucking the fun out of coloring?
Not really a question just a discussion point.

[Mynar]

My DH would say you are. We've gone round and round on this issue when it come to Jasmine and her schoolwork. IMO, when it's school work, and I know she can do it - then she should. If she's coloring for fun who cares. His philosophy is that it is all crayons and I shouldn't expect her to make the distinction, but rather just let her be creative as she sees fit.

[bridgetwu75]

Yeah, I should have clarified that this is our school workbook. If she's just doing her own thing in a random coloring book or whatever then I don't say anything to her about it. But if it's during our "work time" then I expect her to focus and do her best, or put it away until she can.

[rtroth]

I think its important for them to have both, structured time and creative time, maybe when she isnt in to coloring in the lines you can give her the option of just creating something on a blank piece of paper?

[Lydia]

Reading the same book, I tend to agree with you. If she's just half-heartedly doing it, I would either give her some blank paper and tell her to do a drawing on her own if she's not interested in coloring other people's drawings, or have her put it away until she wants to try harder. It's not so much sucking the fun out of coloring--it sounds like she wasn't having too much fun anyway, if she was scribbling just for the heck of it.

BTW, if you haven't read the chapter on fighting/sibling relationships, you should!

[Mynar]

Originally Posted by bridgetwu75

Yeah, I should have clarified that this is our school workbook. If she's just doing her own thing in a random coloring book or whatever then I don't say anything to her about it. But if it's during our "work time" then I expect her to focus and do her best, or put it away until she can.

Well, sounds like on this thing we are on the same page then...so if you are sucking the fun out so am I.

[hanvan]

When I taught first grade I sometimes made kids redo something that was just messy because I knew they could do better. But I think its great to encourage her to do better.

[hanvan]

Originally Posted by Lydia

Reading the same book, I tend to agree with you. If she's just half-heartedly doing it, I would either give her some blank paper and tell her to do a drawing on her own if she's not interested in coloring other people's drawings, or have her put it away until she wants to try harder. It's not so much sucking the fun out of coloring--it sounds like she wasn't having too much fun anyway, if she was scribbling just for the heck of it.

BTW, if you haven't read the chapter on fighting/sibling relationships, you should!

OT but what does the book say on sibling fighting?

[Ky'sMom]

I would push her to do better to or put it away to do later. I always have made Ky do an "excellent" job on any type of schoolwork or learning activity at home. Even now before I check his homework I ask him if he thinks it looks excellent and containts excellent content. If he beats around the bush I make him do it over. I don't think there's anything wrong with pushing kids on some things. Like other posters have said though, I don't push him to do well on regular coloring or drawing, though sometimes I do suggest he use a bit more color or add additional details to a picture if he thinks it'll make it look better. He wants to be an artist and is very serious about his drawings and always asks my opinions on them so I tell him the truth but always leave it up to him since it is his work.


Erin

[Lydia]

Originally Posted by hanvan

OT but what does the book say on sibling fighting?

It emphasizes focusing on getting children to share activities and have fun together, rather than the parents trying to teach them how to compromise or negotiate. That children who play and share adventures, even if they're squabbling, tend to have better relationships.

[hanvan]

Originally Posted by Lydia

It emphasizes focusing on getting children to share activities and have fun together, rather than the parents trying to teach them how to compromise or negotiate. That children who play and share adventures, even if they're squabbling, tend to have better relationships.

thanks! This book sounds pretty neat.

[DucksLikeRain]

Originally Posted by Ky'sMom

I would push her to do better to or put it away to do later. I always have made Ky do an "excellent" job on any type of schoolwork or learning activity at home. Even now before I check his homework I ask him if he thinks it looks excellent and containts excellent content. If he beats around the bush I make him do it over. I don't think there's anything wrong with pushing kids on some things. Like other posters have said though, I don't push him to do well on regular coloring or drawing, though sometimes I do suggest he use a bit more color or add additional details to a picture if he thinks it'll make it look better. He wants to be an artist and is very serious about his drawings and always asks my opinions on them so I tell him the truth but always leave it up to him since it is his work.


Erin

I love it that you ask him, first, what HIS opinion is of his work.

I do a "self evaluation" form for the girls probably once a week. It's a piece of paper with their "First Five" on it for the morning (Potty, Wash hands, Breakfast, Brush Teeth, Get Dressed) and then it has a few of their family work items on it, too (we don't do housework...we do family work ) Next to each thing is a smiley face and a frowny face. They are to circle which face shows their attitude/how they act when they're doing each of the things on the list (we use pictures to show what the things are since they can't read yet). And they're pretty honest with themselves. I think it's important to give them that opportunity-and to teach them that responsibility-when they're young.

Along those lines, I think it's perfectly acceptable...and in fact preferrable!...to have expectations for your child and help them reach them. Mostly I'm talking about when you KNOW they have the ability or skill to do something. We do the same things as you, Bridget, with our workbooks-they don't get to just color willy-nilly in them. That's what color books are for. They don't get to draw pictures on their ABC writing flashcards-that's what blank paper is for. And if they're showing that inclination I'll give them the option of finishing the task correctly or coming back to it when they're done drawing their pictures.

Originally Posted by Lydia

It emphasizes focusing on getting children to share activities and have fun together, rather than the parents trying to teach them how to compromise or negotiate. That children who play and share adventures, even if they're squabbling, tend to have better relationships.

I like this. Especially the part about it being ok if they're squabbling. I definitely do NOT jump in when my girls are having arguments. I keep a watchful eye because Scharae will have some warning signals before she's suddenly violent, and I like to avoid that for obvious reasons. But when one of them comes to me to tattle my response is generally "What can you do to take care of it with her?" or something along those lines-and it usually is resolved within 5 seconds.

I think I might need to join in on you ladies reading this book....I'm thinking it's up my alley

[AbbeysMom]

Originally Posted by Ky'sMom

I don't push him to do well on regular coloring or drawing, though sometimes I do suggest he use a bit more color or add additional details to a picture if he thinks it'll make it look better. He wants to be an artist and is very serious about his drawings and always asks my opinions on them so I tell him the truth but always leave it up to him since it is his work.

I love this.


I do think our society goes about self-esteem building in a strange way, by complimenting children constantly rather than giving then the opportunity to be independent and think for themselves.

But to the original question: Art is different from other disciplines... I mean, what is she learning from coloring in the lines anyway? To follow directions? That's not what I would focus on in teaching about art.

[bridgetwu75]

Originally Posted by AbbeysMom

I love this.


I do think our society goes about self-esteem building in a strange way, by complimenting children constantly rather than giving then the opportunity to be independent and think for themselves.

But to the original question: Art is different from other disciplines... I mean, what is she learning from coloring in the lines anyway? To follow directions? That's not what I would focus on in teaching about art.

I don't consider coloring a picture in her workbook "art".
We do tons of art that involves painting, gluing, stapling, taping, stamps, sponges....and those projects are totally open to do what they like. And I mean totally open.
Coloring in the lines in her workbook that tells her to color all of the things that make her think about winter involves concentration, focus, small motor control and attention to detail.

[bridgetwu75]

Tif and Heather, I highly, highly recommend the book. I mean, I really can't say enough about it. It's been dbf' and I's dinner conversation for weeks. Even he is really intrigued and that says a lot. Each chapter enlightened me.

[Lydia]

I totally agree about the book. It's absolutely fascinating, and evidence-based. They look at all the research and current studies and try to explain things and at the same time give really concrete examples for what has been shown to improve or worsen certain types of behavior.

There is a chapter on lying that explains why kids lie, what makes them lie more (and better) and how they feel about white lies or things parents promise but can't deliver. That chapter really opened my eyes and prepared me to deal with the onset of lying, because it wasn't something I'd prepared for and the best response wasn't something I'd thought of. The chapter on praise was something I already felt like I knew pretty well, but it was great having studies and examples to back up what I was already doing and reinforce it to me. It gave me more motivation to stay on track.

I've been driving dh crazy when we're in bed reading at night, because I interrupt him every few moments to tell him something else fascinating from the book.

[cheeksy]

Originally Posted by rtroth

I think its important for them to have both, structured time and creative time, maybe when she isnt in to coloring in the lines you can give her the option of just creating something on a blank piece of paper?

ITA. Especially if this is her school work, she has to know the difference between free-style and importance of learning to follow instructions.

[newmami]

Thanks for the book recommendation!!

About the draw... tough one because I am neurotic and a perfectionist about certain things.... but I agree with what you are doing.

[Irish-Eyes]

Very interesting. I think I want to read this book.

Talking about overpraising kids, I was just read a Montessori book that talks about excessive -praising and that when a child is doing a task, constantly saying "Good job" only in interrupting the child in their task and that the true sense of self-accomplishment of doing it on their own is never truly reached.

[bridgetwu75]

I knew that about praise too but I still found myself always wanting to tell my kids how smart and wonderful they are. After reading this chapter on praise I realized that these words can actually prevent my children from being as successful as the could be otherwise. The study in this book found that kids who were constantly told how smart they are, didn't want to attempt tasks that they may not succeed at because they didn't want to lose that "smart" status. The group of children that were praised specifically for their focus and hard work were much more likely to attempt something that was too hard for them and to continue to work at it even if they didn't succeed right away.
It also talked about teaching children that their brain is a muscle that they grows stronger when you try to do things that are hard. I have been saying this to Savana and it's really honestly making a difference in her school work. She talks to me about how she can feel her brain getting stronger.
Seriously, y'all. Read this book.

[DucksLikeRain]

We're going to the library today, and I think I'm going to get this book-and possibly buy it later.

We're entering the typical childhood lying stage with Keira-so I'm anxious to read about that, Lydia!

One thing I'm struggling with is how to appropriately praise each of them without it tearing the other one down. For instance, I know that if I say "Keira, you're so fast! Scharae, I love the way you spin!" Then Scharae is, on some level, hearing "Scharae you're not fast" and Keira is hearing "I don't like how you spin". And so I end up praising both of them for equal things even if it isn't quite how it is-because I don't want to damage them. I have 2 close friends that have battled anorexia since we were 12 and one of them just last week told me she finally (after going through an addiction recovery program) identified that her root problem was being compared-and the fear of being compared-with her twin sister all her life. C was the smart one so J thought if she could just be the skinny one! Well, to C then J was the pretty one, so C thought if she could just be the skinny one. And it was all about the compliments their parents-and those around them-had given each of them individually, based on their differences. And that freaks me out, knowing the power I, as a parent, have over the outcome of my childrens' lives.

Ok, I'll stop now. I've really been overanalyzing this for the past week...

[Lydia]

Tif, my children are so different and have such diverse strengths (and weaknesses) that I would never be able to compliment them both about the same thing. I'm concentrating a lot on praising the process rather than the result, or just commenting on what they're doing. Like in your example, I would say "You really like to run fast, don't you?" or "You have so much fun spinning."

My sister and I were very different, and I know my parents praised us for different things. I never felt that I was lacking in something she was good at. I think some of it may be in the way one is praised, and some is innate.

[AnnaC]

This stuff is SO interesting. I've actually been going through a period of self-discovery lately- trying to figure out how I've been affected by the way I was raised and how I can change the things I don't like. So I'm really really interested in all this stuff so that I can do my best to not mess up Hayden!!!

I think I'm going to look for it at the library too.

[DucksLikeRain]

Originally Posted by Lydia

Tif, my children are so different and have such diverse strengths (and weaknesses) that I would never be able to compliment them both about the same thing. I'm concentrating a lot on praising the process rather than the result, or just commenting on what they're doing. Like in your example, I would say "You really like to run fast, don't you?" or "You have so much fun spinning."

My sister and I were very different, and I know my parents praised us for different things. I never felt that I was lacking in something she was good at. I think some of it may be in the way one is praised, and some is innate.

I think I try to remember that-I really hate using the word "good" when they're doing something well-just like I hate using the word bad when they're exhibiting negative behaviour. But I need to do a better job at praising the process. Basically I need to get this book