3-4 yr old tantrums--- again

[MomOfAnOnly]

I need some help I know a lot of moms here have said age 3 was worse than age 2 for tantrums/strong emotions/etc., but how exactly was it worse/different? Did the intensity of your child's tantrums suddenly change, like overnight?

My DD has always been high-spirited, but the last couple days her tantrums have reached an all new intensity. Like she suddenly isn't just angry and crying about not getting a treat or having to go to bed, she goes into a RAGE if things don't go her way Kicking, hitting (she's never been a hitter, ever), screaming so loud she loses her voice and almost makes herself throw up, absolutely cannot hear anything we are saying- she's like a caged wild animal. I'm trying to figure out what's going on with her- is this the "normal" stuff I've seen everyone talk about, or is it something else? And she's never seen anyone act like that- no other kids or adults- so it's not something she picked up anywhere. But it's crazy. And sad. DH witnessed a short but very powerful outburst from her last night, and he said she actually scared him because of how intense she gets

[LanceBabe]

OMG You just described almost exactly what I've been calling Katie's meltdowns! If she can't have the exact pair of socks, or the exact nighttime pullup, or the exact pair of pajamas she wants, she totally loses it! Screaming, crying fits. I can't even describe it. My husband was trying to get her ready for bed the other night. She was having a fit because she wanted a princess pull-up and we didn't have any. She refused to get undressed herself, so he started doing it for her. She's kicking and screaming and fighting him and crying "No grandpa, no, stop! Leave me alone! Let me calm down!" I swear if someone had walked in and saw it, they'd have thought something seriously wrong was happening. He finally wrestled her out of her clothes and into the pull-up, and by then she had worn herself out and he was able to just hold her on his lap for her to calm down. She was practically hyperventilating, she'd cried so hard.

Does that sound like your daughter?

[MomOfAnOnly]

That's pretty much it! And the first tantrum she had like this was in public, at Costco! So there I am carrying this 40lb flailing, freaking out child without dropping her and pushing a 200+lb cart to my car, trying to get her in the carseat while she's screaming at the top of her lungs and arching her back, hitting me, etc. I'm surprised no one stopped me thinking I was kidnapping her!!!! And it was all because I wouldn't buy her a chocolate ice cream from the food court there!

[tanyachap]

That has happened to me with both boys. I am lucky like that b/c Kevin's tantrums got worse after 3y6mo but Matthew is hitting that "milestone" early and I started getting them at 2, so getting them from both often at the same time or 30 min apart. So if you were trying to impress me with getting her out without dropping her, I can tell you I have done it with both (over 70 lbs total weight) each one in different arms Just kidding... it is tough. But Kevin had really intense phase between 3.5-3y.10mo and is back to more normal tantrums. What you describe in not abnormal IME.

[Ashleen]

My daughter definitely has gotten that intense before. But it was not on a constant or continuing basis. And I do not remember her doing it when she was younger (under 3). She actually has not done it for a while now. There was never much we really could do to help her calm down when she was in the middle of all that either. We just kind of waited until she wasn't totally nuts to even try to talk to her. Also it wasn't like one day she was normal and the next she was having these kinds of tantrums over everything. She just kind of went through a period where something would set her off and she would go crazy. It usually only happened when she was overtired (which she used to be horrible sleeper so that was more often then not). I don't know if it was what helped or not but I started kind of teaching her relaxation techniques like meditation, deep breathes, some yoga. Also after she would calm down we would talk about how she could have expressed herself differently, then we would practice that.

Also just wanted to say that 3 was more intense for us then 2. We had a lot more behavior issues at 3 where as when she was two she seemed more eager to please and follow rules. Now that she is 4 she is really very well behaved, she know the rules and follows them with out any real trouble. But she has definitely gotten more sensitive in a different way in that she just gets sad (okay totally devastated) over anything that isn't a totally happy situation. But if she has a fit now it is driven by sadness not anger.

[MomOfAnOnly]

My DD has never been a great sleeper, and the last month things have gotten rough again. Even with a nap she is only getting 9-10 hours of sleep, and she's always needed 11-12 hours. That's the other thing- because her nighttime sleep has been so bad she started taking a nap again almost every day, and she had previously stopped napping right around her 2nd bday, so over a year ago.

I've been trying to figure out what developmental thing she's going through that is causing all of this--- she's always been very verbal but seems like she's reached even another level of understanding and language usage, coupled with the sleep stuff and now suddenly the tantrums....

My mom thinks it's related to the recent vaccine DD got I've been trying to go on my instincts with regards to vaccines, and this was only the 4th one she's ever had. My mom really isn't anti-vax, so to have her say that today really bummed me out.

[V]

Hi Carrie. Long time stalker here, often wanted to reply to your threads about your DD but never knew how to summarise my point and got lost in memories of my own experiencese with my DD. Tonight, I'm going to get straight to the point lol..your DD, and your experience of Motherhood, reminds me much of mine with my DD. I could list many comparisons but will remain focused and simple say to you it gets better! So much better soon. My DD is now 4yrs and 5months and she is a dream. Still high needs but so very very endearing and full of quirky charm. She sleeps well most nights and entertains herself when not. I can't explain why exactly it gets so much easier, but now her intelligence and personality seem to be working for her, not against me lol.

Just wanted to say I also understand how hard it is and hang in there, keep up the good work you do, and you WILL reep plentiful rewards soon too

Hugs and warmest wishes
V x

[MomOfAnOnly]

Thank you so much V!!! That really does give me hope that I'm not completely failing her in some way.
In so many ways it's gotten harder as she's gotten older!! I was just joking to my DH yesterday that as difficult as it was when she was an infant, we had it easy then- all we had to do was make sure she had a full belly, change her diaper, and keep her alive lol! Now we are responsible for making sure we instill good values, help her realize her full potential, don't break her amazing spirit---- that's so much more pressure!

[Irish-Eyes]

Carrie, I would say the sleep deprivation is the root of the tantrums. Lord knows it makes me crazy sometimes and far less likely to rationally tackle things. I would examine the sleep situation more to see if it gets you anywhere.

[3andMe]

Carrie, it doesn't end. All three of my children have been acting like total beasts for the past month. Screaming, flailing, deafness-inducing, bruise-causing, sanity-losing, barely human little beasts. If there had been something a month ago that I could have specifically pointed to that suggested they start this course of behavior, like a vaccine, my human tendency for finding patterns in things might have wanted to look for that, but they go through this occasionally. They go through periods, either separately or together, of being really wonderful or being really challenging. I can try to find and correct a physiological cause, but sometimes there just isn't one and it's just the normal ebb and flow. Sleep, hunger and social changes can all make things worse. And traveling can make things worse and better. We usually try (if we can muster up the good will) to give more attention and more affection when they're being like this. Good luck to you.

[Bridget]

Carrie, I would also really focus on the sleep. Not like you haven't been but both Savana and Kai, when they don't get enough sleep are like completely different children. And I can totally relate to the feeling of actually being a little afraid of the intensity of the tantrum. Savana gets so worked up sometimes she is screaming so hard she has to, like, pause between each word to take a breath. It makes me literally back away from her. Almost every time this happens I can attribute it to her going to bed too late the night before.

[tapir]

There's a really good book: Sleepless in America, by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. All about the correlation between sleep and behavior, and how to establish healthy sleep habits.
Go forth and read it

Also, 2 and 3 were quite delightful at our house. The major **** has hit the fan at 4.5 though. This phase can't be over soon enough. Lydia, I can't even imagine dealing with it x3, hats off to you.

[LanceBabe]

We have found that Katie's "meltdowns" DO seem to occur most, and most intensely, when she is overly tired, which is probably why they are worst at night when getting ready for bed and in the morning when getting ready for school (she's in head start preschool). We've been relatively lucky in that she doesn't have them much out in public.

[mommabert]

Oh the tantrums. I've got them mostly under control through using calming ourselves down techniques with G but it sounds like E is just on that developmental track. Three has so far been ridiculously worse than two. I'm really hoping he starts to chill the frig out soon.

[Ashleen]

I agree the sleep thing is big. Thinking about it, I really don't think that Paige acted like that when she wasn't overtired. Even now if she doesn't get enough sleep, it is a bad day from the time she wakes up until she goes to sleep that night. When she was she 3 she went through a period where she was getting max like 7-8 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period, it was NOT good... she even looked awful with dark circles under eyes. Like your daughter she was always an awful sleeper, up to around 3.5. It got progressively better after that, and now she sleeps through the night like 80% of the time. It has amazingly gotten even better since she gave up her binky (a decision she made completely on her own) a few weeks ago (I know it's terrible that I let her have that long, but she loved it and it was her source of comfort). So there is hope that the sleep thing does get better.

[Capricity]

She just kind of went through a period where something would set her off and she would go crazy. It usually only happened when she was overtired (which she used to be horrible sleeper so that was more often then not).

This ^ sounds just like my DS. He just turned 3 and hasn't napped regularly for several months. For several weeks/month or so he would not nap and still be up until 8-9pm and perfectly happy. And then (I'm assuming it's developmental) he'll NEED his naps. So during the week or so that he's having a 'phase' around 3pmish if he hasn't had a nap (even though normally he never takes one anymore) he will go crazy.
We were in a parking lot yesterday when he decided he wasn't ready to go home, so I'm carrying the 14month old in one arm, with a vise grip on his hand, DRAGGING him through the parking lot, bc if I let him go he will run off (and so will the baby) so my only survival is making it to the car.
I tried to reason with him there, but after 5 minutes of him screaming so hard he might puke, I just had to hold him down with my whole body just to buckle him.
Then, of course, when we got home he let me put him right in his bed and fell fast asleep. So for him it's defeinitely related to needing more sleep for deveopmental stuff and being overtired. It usually happens rarely, but when it does it happens a few days in a row, then we'll have weeks of "nicer" DS.

[KC's wifey]

DD1 isn't quite three yet, but a couple months ago it was like a switch turned on and her tantrums got more intense and more often. She didn't have many before. Now they happen over all sorts of things, usually things she wants to do herself but, for whatever reason, I need to do or do for her. When I read about your experience at Costco I had to laugh a bit, because I had a very similar experience at Walmart. She didn't want to hold my hand in the parking lot and threw a fit. I had the baby and a full cart of groceries and was trying to pick her up off the floor and carry her out while she was screaming bloody murder. A nice elderly lady actually offered to push the cart to the car for me so I could carry her. (I think she saw me and it brought back memories for her. lol) I felt bad because she was someone I would have wanted to do something for, rather than her do something for me! But I was so grateful I gave her a hug afterwards. lol

The melt downs do happen more often when she is tired, so I have been making sure she has a good nap and goes to bed on time. But the other thing that has helped is the "calm down jar". Have you seen them on Pinterest? Its a jar with glitter glue and water in it and they watch the sparkles fall slowly to the bottom. If DD is throwing a fit at home, I carry her to her room and give her the jar. It actually does help her, and then she comes out and says very proudly "Mommy! I'm calmed down!" I should make a small travel one to put in my purse. lol

Sometimes I ask her if she needs to go to her room to calm down and she will nod and walk in there herself. Sometimes, if I can tell she is more sad/hurt than angry, I will ask if she needs a hug and we will hug until she calms down. It really depends on the tantrum/melt down. I hope this is a short phase, though, for you and me! Its exhausting!

[tanyachap]

I am sure the sleep does not help at all. Hopefully she will start sleeping well again. Our tantrums here are not always sleep related.

[MomOfAnOnly]

We've had two really good days of no tantrums! Not even the smaller ones -that we thought were big!- that we've become so used to.

The last two days of sleep have gone pretty well- Friday night 11pm-8am, Saturday 1030pm-10am (fantastic!!!). No naps either day. I will look into the Sleepless in America suggestion!

I did implement using stars to reward her for desired behavior- like cleaning up her toys, getting ready for bed (without a tantrum), being sweet to her cousin/grandma/ME. Once she earns 20 stars she can chose a treat/outing of her choice. It's worked so well so quickly that it only took her 3 days to earn 20 stars! She's surprised us by cleaning up toys without even being asked (clean up had always been a huge struggle previously); she's using polite manners like excuse me when she needs my attention, please and thank you; all transitions have been really smooth, no tears about anything at all; and when I had to tell her no or say it was time for bed she accepted it immediately without complaint or demanding more time

I've also been giving her more choices Love & Logic style (bought the e-book for Preschoolers the night of our Costco fiasco). She seems to really be enjoying the fun choices I come up with for her, like asking her if she wants brown sugar or tomatoes in her oatmeal lol, should we cook the oatmeal for 2 seconds or 2 minutes, etc).

I'm not sure the star chart was the best idea I've ever had---- I'm a bit scared we're going to be using a star chart until she moves out of the house The reason- she's been out of diapers for 9 months but still expects some chocolate almost every time she poo's lol. One day at a time I guess!


ETA- I forgot to say what she chose as her reward for filling up her first star chart- a chocolate ice cream....... from Costco

[KC's wifey]

ETA- I forgot to say what she chose as her reward for filling up her first star chart- a chocolate ice cream....... from Costco

Glad its going well for you so far!

[tanyachap]

so funny about the Costco ice cream. I hope she continues staying on that path

[sookie4415]

Megan does this too only she does vomit from it from time to time. I always notice it to be worse when I know she is more tired than usual and it only ever happens with her in the evenings...never earlier in the day.

I give her time outs for it which sometimes help and sometimes make it worse. What I do do is walk away because I refuse to give that sort of behavior attention(that is just me)...

I know my oldest was much the same...and she is now 6 and has mostly completely grown out of it.

Hang in there...I swear 4 is easier!!!!

[goofy23]

OMG I'm so scared! DD has these kind of tantrums and she's only 26 months old! How could it possibly get worse?!!!!!? Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! I'm going to need that calm down jar for myself!

[Ky'sMom]

ETA- I forgot to say what she chose as her reward for filling up her first star chart- a chocolate ice cream....... from Costco

LOL at that!! Reminds me of Elle as she never forget a wanted snack or any item that she really wants!!

Glad to hear the past few days are better. I agree regarding sleep, both my kids are nuts when they don't get enough sleep, Ky has always been our more "spirited" child, Elle is much calmer than he is and she is 3 and he is 10! To this day I don't like letting him stay up late or go to slumber parties or spend the night at a relatives house because he'll stay up late, come home the next day, and be a nut - crying, whining, like he is a toddler again. I noticed this about him as a baby, luckily he is always been easy to fall and stay asleep as long as it is dark and quiet but he has to get 10-12 hours of sleep per night to this day. DH also turns into a nut when sleep deprived so I figure it is some sort of genetic thing where they cannot function on less than a certain amount of sleep.

Erin

[AugustMommy]

http://www.instructables.com/id/The-...-I-Spy-Bottle/

This instructable will detail the brutally easy construction of an I-Spy bottle that you can make in 10 minutes without tools, put on a table, and enthrall kids for, well not an hour, but about 15-45 minutes per head. You might as well make one because it's extremely cheap and easy, and it's cheaper and more fun than an I-Spy book or game.

Materials:
-A transparent water bottle (the older cylindrical ones work better than the new "eco" ones.)
-enough oats to fill a water bottle
-about 6 to 8 little trinkets (to or three bigger ones, and two or three smaller ones
-transparent or translucent tape
Gather tinkets.
Everyone has them. Look at your work bench, your basement, your spare parts drawer. Wherever. Just remember it has to go in the top of the water bottle. I ended up with stuff like a hair barrette, a Philips bit, a die, polly pocket stuff, a marble, a rock, a paperclip, and a crayon tip.


*I made mine with beach sand, small beach shells, pebbles, and a few pennies.

[xtrememousey]

can i just chime in and say i think it's something in the air......i have a super laid back sweet boy (carrie knows he's pretty darn calm) but in the last week or so i have seen some amazingly horrid meltdowns from him and almost every other toddler i know......i wonder if its the moon phase or position.

[MomOfAnOnly]

That is good to know Leyla. We have another friend whose little boy is just a week younger than Emme (so 2 weeks younger than Cam) and he's usually just as calm and mellow as Cam, maybe even a little more so because he's pretty shy, and he's had a few meltdowns this week. Not as intense as Emme's, but completely out of character for him.
Maybe it's the heat already getting to them

[xtrememousey]

that's not a bad thought.....but its all over the country. i have friends in chicago and florida with the same problems

[MomOfAnOnly]

Yeah I didn't really think so I'm just looking for something easy to blame it on lol!

[jazzmom]

Madison (now 6) was a breeze through her 2's...but when she hit 3 (3 1/2 actually) she became a handful practically overnight. Like Emme she started hitting us when she NEVER tried that before. It was tough! We just stuck it out (consistent discipline, letting her know that behavior wasn't acceptable) and things eventually got better. Ali is pretty good at 2.5...but after this experience I'm bracing myself for when she turns 3! I'm hoping she got the hitting thing out of her system as she is just now coming out of that phase. Her personality is also different...she's not nearly as intense as her sister and can move beyond being upset quickly, so that may help.

Hang in there! It's not fun but it'll end!