Secular Confessions

[Gwenn]

Bridget, Savana is such a sweetheart. Imagine a child her age being that upset but still worried about someone else's feelings - that's hard for me to do at 37!

Katy, that was a great article. That's exactly why I hate flashcards, DVDs, etc. for kids, too. Kids just don't learn that way.

Lydia, sounds like a rough day. Enjoy your glass of wine and your clean bedding. You deserve it.

Black Swan grossed me out, too. I really enjoyed the psychological aspect of all of it but I thought it went a little over the top. Good movie, though.

I went out to Trader Joe's and the cashier was talking in this fake accent like you hear people use at Renaissance fairs. I was a little amused. Then I went to Starbucks on the way home and the cashier there was using one of those artificially deep, slightly too loud radio announcer voices. I kept looking around for a TV camera or something, it was so odd hearing two cashiers in a row with fake voices. Am I just overly sensitive to this kind of thing? I suspect I must be.

[missychrissy]

Bless Savannah's heart for thinking about the beauticians feelings

I couldn't watch Black Swan...I don't like graphic injuries at all. It would make me sick.

Those kitties are adorable!

Too weird about the cashiers using fake voices. wth was that about?

Off to read the article about learning...I confess I never really worried about it at all. I think maybe it was because I was so young when I had the girls. Thankfully, none seem to be worse for wear because of it. Poor girls! lol

[Bridget]

Off to read the article about learning...I confess I never really worried about it at all. I think maybe it was because I was so young when I had the girls. Thankfully, none seem to be worse for wear because of it. Poor girls! lol

Not at all! That's the whole point, I think. We worry too much. There is so much to be learned just letting kids PLAY.
I love the cuuriculum I am doing with Savana. The kindergarten has no "academics". It's all art, gardening, sewing, cooking, stories, and just embracing the rhythm of a day.
I have never pushed the abc's and 123's yet a few days ago she was talking and said, "Maybe when I'm 12 and Kai is 11 and Sawyer is 7 we can go to that Disney place."
There was a lot of pauses and finger counting but i was thay she was able to figure that out. Kids naturally want to learn and my opinion, when they are young there is much more to be learned from the garden or from making muffins than from a worksheet.

[missychrissy]

We kinda had a similar moment last night with Conner. The new dinosaur book I bought him (that he initially threw in the garbage!) gives estimates on how many feet each dinosaur was. Some were as little as 3 feet (like me! he says) and some as big as 90 feet. He just knew that the 40 foot one was smaller than the 90 foot one. I was like because I've never talked about size in that realm with him before. I was even surprised when he realized the 3 foot one was approximately his size.

[Cosmosmom]

At first I was reading your comments and was like wait, I like flashcards and memorization....that is a great for learning. Of course I had to go back and read the article and realized that it wasn't talking about grade school aged kids but 4 yr olds. Different story!
It kind of goes back a bit to the idea of when kids should be starting school. I'm a Sept baby and the cutoff by me is Sept 1st. My mom had me tested since I missed the deadline by literally days. I passed by after talking with my friends mom (a psychologist), she was told that it is better to be older in class and not younger. So I was 6 just a week after K started...pretty much always one of the oldest in the class. School was almost always fun and easy for me. I know two others in my situtation but they were pushed ahead and were the youngest in class.....and struggled throughout school.

I can't say for sure but I can see DH and I working with our kid a lot but in a fun way. And most of all tons and tons of reading starting pretty much from day one. We are both readers, already own some kids books and plan on adding a good deal more. And while my library is not useful to kids....I know my way around our public one. DH and I both know a lot in different areas to answer questions...but if we don't know something, we know how to help a child find out.
And games....we both really like playing games...don't have too many of those for little kids but will be buying them and playing them. Great way to learn.

[missychrissy]

Speaking of reading to your kids...does anyone else think it's incredibly hard to pronounce dinosaur names? I know I'm screwing them up royally, but it seems like every book we get includes a new one I've never heard of!!

[Cosmosmom]

Um yes I think I would have a hard time with that. I might leave dinosaurs up to DH...I wasn't into them and he was when little.

[daylilies]

Some of them are weird...I'm never really sure where to put the emphasis. Josh doesn't have any dinosaur books though. He likes Dr. Seuss and classic stories. He also really likes Weird Al's children's book

[Cosmosmom]

Uggg, I'm irritated with my bff right now...and thus not emailing her back until I am not. She said something that is really offensive to me right now but I don't think that at all that she did it on purpose and probably wouldn't have said it if she had been thinking and not sleep deprived. Basically she said that she believes that bfing will raise IQ because it's like feeding an organic veggie diet and that formula is like feeding all fried junk food. But she knows that we will be doing formula with our baby when we finally get one. I get that bfing is a better option but don't feel that it's THAT much better and resent the insinuation that my baby won't be as smart because I'm feeding it the equivalent of KFC and McD's.

That said, I wonder how much of things, like intelligence/personality/likes and dislikes are inherited and how much is environment...the whole nature/nuture thing. I think that my parents for example are pretty average in intelligence to maybe a bit above average....but my sister and I were constantly read to, taught things, given a great deal of attention, played with....and I know my IQ is in the mid-upper 130's. I don't know if my sister was ever tested but we are pretty equal. DH is pretty much the same....his mom has no idea where it came from. I wonder just how much came about because of how we were raised and how much was just genetic.

[missychrissy]

I wouldn't equate formula with McDonalds food! omg!! But if it makes you feel any better, Bobbie only had breastmilk for 4 days...and look how smart she is! I know her IQ is far higher than mine.

[AbbeysMom]

Uggg, I'm irritated with my bff right now...and thus not emailing her back until I am not. She said something that is really offensive to me right now but I don't think that at all that she did it on purpose and probably wouldn't have said it if she had been thinking and not sleep deprived. Basically she said that she believes that bfing will raise IQ because it's like feeding an organic veggie diet and that formula is like feeding all fried junk food. But she knows that we will be doing formula with our baby when we finally get one. I get that bfing is a better option but don't feel that it's THAT much better and resent the insinuation that my baby won't be as smart because I'm feeding it the equivalent of KFC and McD's.

That said, I wonder how much of things, like intelligence/personality/likes and dislikes are inherited and how much is environment...the whole nature/nuture thing. I think that my parents for example are pretty average in intelligence to maybe a bit above average....but my sister and I were constantly read to, taught things, given a great deal of attention, played with....and I know my IQ is in the mid-upper 130's. I don't know if my sister was ever tested but we are pretty equal. DH is pretty much the same....his mom has no idea where it came from. I wonder just how much came about because of how we were raised and how much was just genetic.

My sis is a member of Mensa and was formula fed. Makes no difference in intelligence IMO. I think the big difference is in immunity, bf babies do tend to get sick less. When you do have your LO, supplementing with probiotics can help, since there are no live good bugs in formula but there are a ton in breast milk.

I received all kinds of harsh comments when I couldn't bf. I really beat myself up over it too. I think it's awesome that bfing is being promoted so much more than it used to be, but it baffles me why people need to bash ffing mommas in the process.

[Cosmosmom]

Yeah and I was a formula baby as well as my bff. I know part of it is her own guilt because she is back to work and pumping and coming up a little short each day so the daycare is having to give a few ounces of formula. I'm getting less irritated but still might wait until tomorrow to write her back.

The whole genetics thing is interesting to me but scary too. I mean I figured that if we had a bio baby, we sort of know what we would get. I wouldn't expect an athlete to come from us....that is basically NOWHERE in the family on either side for example. With adoption, so much more is unknown and we could end up with an athlete.
But than again when I look at my cousins who are adopted, I can see so much of their moms in their personalities so there is definitely a lot there for the nuture aspect.

Interesting was the one video we saw last week comparing adoption in the past to today. They actually said, well this baby is very bright and above average so will go to this couple because mr. smith is above average....but this baby is dull and average so will go to the jones who are just average. Ok, but how in the world can you tell by looking at new babies what their intelligence is. I could kind of understand when they were matching up babies with parents based on eye and hair color since it was back when things were closed and people didn't usually say the child was adopted.

[missychrissy]

The nature/nurture question is really interesting to me. My bil met his current wife when she was already pregnant with their oldest son. His bio dad is black (mom is not) but Nate (my bil) has been there since his birth and that boy is now 16 and has mannerisms just like Nate. I forget, even with his black skin color, that's he's genetically not 'one of us' so to speak. In all aspects that matter, he is. He's as much my nephew as Nate's biological children.

On the flip side, I have a cousin that was born to one of my mom's sisters that has a worse case of mental illness than my mom. She tried to raise Connie herself for nearly 2 years, but she just couldn't. Connie was adopted out and raised by a family in Candor (near where we currently live). She grew to be a beautiful, intelligent young woman. She was a cheerleader in high school and is currently in college with the goal of becoming a pediatrician. Even though her intelligence would have been there for her to do that if she was raised by my aunt, I have no doubt she wouldn't have been able to do it if her mother hadn't made the selfless decision to give her up for adoption when she did. She's in her early to mid 20's and shows no signs of mental illness whatsoever. Given that it usually appears in the teens or early 20's, I think she's home free.

[AmeriBrit]

Ah, I wouldn't let that comment about the formula bother me, Jennifer. I think people feel really defensive about breast feeding since a lot of them get hassled about it. Both my boys are formula babies and are A-OK.

I think the nature vs. nurture thing is sooo interesting. I can see a lot of it in my own family. I feel lucky to have inherited my dad's traits since he's intelligent and sarcastic (like me!) but my mom is very bubbly but a bit of an air head.

[Ky'sMom]

Ah, I wouldn't let that comment about the formula bother me, Jennifer. I think people feel really defensive about breast feeding since a lot of them get hassled about it. Both my boys are formula babies and are A-OK.

I think the nature vs. nurture thing is sooo interesting. I can see a lot of it in my own family. I feel lucky to have inherited my dad's traits since he's intelligent and sarcastic (like me!) but my mom is very bubbly but a bit of an air head.

I agree. I was formula fed as well and I think I am rather intelligent. I was in gifted programs all through school and also had an IQ in the 130s, don't know what it is now since I haven't been tested since high school.

But I also contribute it to genetics. Even though my parents weren't the best, they didn't do a lot with us, but we are still pretty bright IMO. My mom read to me a lot as a toddler though. I remember her trying to skip pages and me telling her how she was reading the story wrong. Pretty much everyone in our family are very intelligent when it comes to academics and book smarts. My dad was a drug addict much of my childhood but he could do all kinds of math problems in his head, like whole strings of numbers with addition or subtraction, percentages and the like. He still can. He is really smart and so is my mom, but they just focused on the wrong things when they were young. My grandparents were all pretty well off and had high ranking jobs and my aunts are also all pretty intelligent academically. Pretty much all of us drank formula since that was what people fed their babies primarily where I'm from. My grandma told me once that the hospital staff told her that formula was more healthy that BM since scientist actually knew what was in it and knew that the baby was getting all the vitamins they needed and you didn't know with breastmilk what your baby was consuming .

I also feel the immunological reasons are of the biggest benefit of BFing. And really I decided to BF after reading how it cuts the chances of a baby developing allergies and asthma since I suffered from both as a kid as well as frequent illnesses.

Erin

[Cosmosmom]

Interestingly enough, I was the ff baby and I was very healthy and not sick much at all. My sister who never once took a bottle, got sick a lot more...probably since that was when I started school and would bring things home. And she has a lot of ear problems.

Chrissy, I really liked your nuture stories. I hope that it is more nuture because I would love to pass on our traits and have our child be more like us.

Thanks Ashley! Both your boys do seem to be pretty A-ok!

[Gwenn]

We talked a lot about nature/nurture in my classes. From what I understand, we are all born with a certain potential - some have a higher potential, and some have a lower potential. Some experiences, like neglect or disease, will lower potential. Broadening a child's horizons, giving them lots of things to see and do, lots of books and concepts and things to explore, will help to maximize that potential. But it isn't possible to raise a child's IQ either by breastfeeding or any other way. Sadly, it is possible to lower it, though. But not by breast feeding/formula feeding. The Genie story comes to mind - I'm fascinated by Genie actually.

Particularly with language, our brains are wired to learn language in a unique way (chimps and other apes can learn to make signs, and dogs can recognize words and hand signs but can't learn grammar ... although I read somewhere that dolphins use a form of grammatical structure). But, we can't learn language locked in a closet the way Genie was. Just like an ape, she never did learn grammar although she did learn words. So a child needs good quality input to develop good language skills. But of course some children's brains find it more difficult to acquire language (what we call specific language impairment) and no matter how good the input is, they don't learn well.

On the other end, you may have a parent who didn't have a lot of stimulation in childhood so didn't come close to their max genetic potential ... but through providing good input to their children their children come closer to their potential if that makes sense.

That topic fascinates me, obviously. DH's dad was adopted and he loves to try to tell me it's all about nurture and nature has nothing to do with it. I shoot him down every time.

[The10Eels]

I just got news about a car accident back home... Two kids I went to school with were killed, and the third passenger (also went to school with) was hurt pretty bad, and is in the hospital...

Makes you realize how fast things can change

[Gwenn]

I just got news about a car accident back home... Two kids I went to school with were killed, and the third passenger (also went to school with) was hurt pretty bad, and is in the hospital...

Makes you realize how fast things can change

I'm so sorry to hear that.

[missychrissy]

That topic fascinates me, obviously. DH's dad was adopted and he loves to try to tell me it's all about nurture and nature has nothing to do with it. I shoot him down every time.

It fascinates me too and everything you said makes perfect sense to me.

I just got news about a car accident back home... Two kids I went to school with were killed, and the third passenger (also went to school with) was hurt pretty bad, and is in the hospital...

Makes you realize how fast things can change

I hate to hear things like that. I'm so sorry. Any word on how the 3rd passenger is doing?

[Bridget]

Morning ladies.
Ash, I am so sorry about your friends.
I am feeling so much better about Savana. Her behavior has improved so much. Yesterday we went to the zoo and she said to me that she was not going to bring her nose wipe with her because she felt like she didn't need it. She has not left the house without one in months.
She hasn't had any fall out tantrums lately
Ohhh, my cousin came over last night. My other cousin, her sister, has a seventeen year old daughter who just brought a girl home and introduced her as her girlfriend. The family is struggling with accepting this,especially dad. What killed me was that she kept saying they love her regardless of her "choices".
I didn't know what to say because they are very devout catholics and believe that the "choice" to be homosexual is a sin and nothing I say is going to change that. But I did mention that my brother hid his sexuality for years because he was ashamed and that hiding that has damaged him in ways that will likely never be repaired. It's impossible to love yourself if you are ashamed of who you are. And if there is one thing universal about loving parents it's that you want your child to love themselves.

[3andMe]

Oh man, I'm a wreck. Soren's pukefest was nothing compared to what I suffered last night. I hate throwing up with a passion. I took multiple anti-nausea meds and antidiarrheal meds and still spent all night in the bathroom. Fortunately, dh really came through, and even though he's never put Soren to sleep before, he managed to get him quieted down and back to sleep a couple of times when I couldn't handle even the small motion of the back-patting.

Then I stumbled out of bed this morning when the twins woke up early, and Soren threw up all over the bed again.

---------

Ash, I'm sorry to hear about your friends.

[The10Eels]

It fascinates me too and everything you said makes perfect sense to me.



I hate to hear things like that. I'm so sorry. Any word on how the 3rd passenger is doing?

He was in surgery last I heard last night...

[daylilies]

Oh Lydia, yuck. I hope you guys get better soon.
Sorry about your friends Ash Hope the surgery goes well.

[demigraf]

Ash - I'm sorry about your friends in the car accident. You're so right. News like that or the tsunami in Japan just makes you realize how all the stuff you worry about from day to day is goofy by comparison.

Lydia - Feel better! Have you tried ice under your tongue? It's an old wives' nausea cure from the "old country", but it actually does work, say for like when I got amoebic dysentery from drinking the water.

Speaking of the old country, an unexpected bonus to living where I do now is the high concentration of people of my ethnicity in the area. Bodhi will grow up seeing people who look like him, and the area is way more diverse in general. It's a huge contrast to rich, blonde mommyland, where we last lived. Not that I have anything terribly against rich blonde mommies, except that they all seemed to drive the same gas guzzlers they didn't really need and made the occasional out-of-touch comment, like "I can't understand why ANYONE wouldn't buy a seat for their infant on a plane!" Oh yeah, and it didn't matter how infrequent a person came to babysit for a child; she was always called "the nanny".

Speaking of old wives, I'd like to become one someday.

Bridget, that's great that Savana seems to be cycling out of the tantrum phase she was in. Do you think it might have also been something developmental?

Chrissy, saw the pics of Jesi on FB. The captions were precious. I have to say, she looked quite cool!

I'll hop back on here next when I have more free time. I always feel behind these days!

[daylilies]

I showed Josh the pictures of Jessica and he says "I like it because once I saw toys on the tv and their hair was like that." I think he's talking about those trolls with the crazy hair, LOL

[missychrissy]

I showed Josh the pictures of Jessica and he says "I like it because once I saw toys on the tv and their hair was like that." I think he's talking about those trolls with the crazy hair, LOL

omg that's funny!!!

Jesi was a little offended that some older people (70+) were staring at her in the restaurant last night. I told her that that's the risk you take when you do something so daring, but my advice was to kill them (an arbitrary 'them') with kindness. If anyone were to be so bold as to say something rude to her, I told her to remain her sweet self and put them to shame that way.

I can't believe I'm defending her mohawk, but what's done is done. She looks like a freak (said with lots of love) but that doesn't give anyone permission to treat her bad. She can take good natured ribbing...but I think she's a little anxious about someone older saying something downright mean to her.

[missychrissy]

Speaking of old wives, I'd like to become one someday.

That was random!

Ash, I hope your friend comes through surgery ok.

Feel better Lydia. I too hate being sick like nothing else in this world.

[AbbeysMom]

Speaking of old wives, I'd like to become one someday.

Me too, or a gypsy. Or just a bingo-playing old lady with her own set of lucky markers and a good-size garden.

Speaking of, my garden is looking ***fabulous*** already. But now my house is a wreck because all I do is putter around my garden.


---
So sorry about your friends Ash, hope that the third passenger can pull through surgery and have a quick recovery.

---
to Lydia too. I don't mind puking personally, I know I'm weird. It just never bothered me all that much.

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[missychrissy]

According to my husband, I'm already an old lady. He's been calling me his 'old lady' since I was 16 years old!