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Thread: Secular Confessions

  1. #44251
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    Janet, you know I am in a similar situation. One thing I have gleaned - don't make any choice until you are certain that is the option you WANT. Infertility in and of itself isn't enough reason to adopt. You have to genuinely want to adopt. Same with making a decision to pursue treatments, or a decision to not have children. Any of those choices have to be the choice that you are ultimately going to be okay with.

    There is a book I read and recommend called Navigating the Land of IF. I highly suggest you read it before you make any decision one way or the other. I also suggest that you not go to the adoption classes until you know it is what YOU want, and not what your mother wants. Because you are going to be the one staying up nights with the adopted child, not your mother. That book will give you some frame of reference for all of your options.
    Me (39) DH (46) & furbabies * m/c 7/08 4/12 11/12

  2. #44252

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    Thank you, Mandy, you always have wise words. And, despite the fact that I love your insight and wisdom and kind words... I HATE that you are dealing with similar. This should just never happen!!

    See, if it weren't for infertility, I did always want to adopt. But, not as a desperate last ditch attempt. Had things gone my way, I wanted two kids close in age, then a gap, then two more. I had always hoped that I would get pregnant quickly and easily, and then start the adoption process. I knew it'd take a while, so I figured I'd have two kids while I waited, hence the gap.

    But alas, that plan has been torn from me. In hindsight, I wish that I had started the adoption process right after Maiya- but instead I'd hoped that I could have another successful IUI (cheaper and faster than adoption, had it worked). And, in that scenario, I would have just given up on adoption, since the cost of the two IUI-babies would have been much higher than natural conception, and would have taken up the adoption funds, and it would have taken much more time than I'd originally anticipated.

    Of course, that didn't happen either. Now that I'm here, though... If I had a baby fall in my lap, I would JUMP at the chance. That baby would be my baby in a heart beat. Blood relation means little me, and in the case of my child, nothing. I would LOVE to adopt a baby / kid. What I do NOT want, and am not sure I can handle right now, is just the roller coaster associated with it. I, uh, know some people that could possibly end up with unwanted pregnancies, and if that happened, and if they asked me to adopt (which wouldn't happen, if I know them as well as I think I know them), I would jump through any hoops necessary. I could handle the roller coaster if I knew the outcome. It's the roller coaster with no guarantee at the end that I'm not sure I can handle right now.

    And thanks for the book suggestion! I will go google it now.
    Last edited by Krystal5; 12-03-2013 at 12:36 AM.



  3. #44253
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    Ok, I will say that adoption wasn't my first choice. I would have prefered to just gotten PG. I know I will love that baby like my own biological...both my grade school age cousins are adopted and they are absolutely ours. Plus I know I love my dogs like crazy and I obviously am not blood related to them. LOL But still adoption wasn't my first choice.

    I would definitely visit more than one agency. I did and one told us that stuff we didn't like, we liked this one we are with much better. It's been a wait for us but they did say that every family that just kept with it eventually gets a match. Two couples we know got matched much sooner, around 15 and 17 months waiting. A lot depends on what state the birth mom is in. In my state, once they terminate is absolutely 100% final. It is going to suck worrying about the time there is a match and the termination. My agency doesn't match until towards the end of the pregnancy and provides counseling for the birth moms and doesn't push them towards adoption. And we most likely will be in an open adoption where we have some kind of contact with the birth mom/birth family....but that isn't legally enforceable in my state (but I think for example the agreements are in Minnesota).
    At this point I think that there is one person ahead of us....they got their stuff done four months sooner....when a safe haven baby is available locally. I know the social worker has said that we would be on the list of people she would call. I also know that the girl ahead of us would probably get called first and that she would accept that match.

    I will also say that I'm not totally sure that one has to be done grieving before moving on. I don't think I totally did...my mini break down thing was new years eve and in Jan, I was talking to the agency and got in the March group of classes. I didn't have all my paperwork finished and the home visit and be officially in the resume book until August 13th. In our classes we talked about loss a lot. Loss of a biological kid for us, loss for the birth parents, loss for the child. The classes actually ended up being better than we thought. Except when they covered attachment because it's state mandated.....would have been great for international adoption or foster care but even the social worker was like, these issues aren't really relevant with newborn adoption.

    Ok now the finances. I don't know what your hubby does, but have him check and see if his work gives an adoption assistance. Many employers do, most common amount is 5K. Second is the adoption tax credit, that is something around 13K. The problem with both of those is that you need the money up front....but once you eventually can claim them, you could pay your parents back. So for example, we paid 5-6K in 2011 and since it wasn't finalized yet we had to wait until the following year to claim. In 2013, my tax return for 2012 gave me back that 5-6K we paid in 2011. We probably have about 7K tax credit remaining but since we didn't pay expenses in 2012 or 2013 we likely will not claim until the year the adoption is final. Plus we are lucky in that both of us get 5K from our employers. So really we will likely not end up much out of pocket for an adoption....giving birth would have been more expensive. It's just having to have the money liquid in the bank so when we do get a match, we are ready to go.
    The other thing is that WI limits the amount of money we can legally spend on birth mom.....some states don't have limits. If you pay for a ton of birth mom expenses and she changes her mind, you are just screwed out of the money....cannot get money from someone who doesn't have it to begin with. So that was one thing we liked about our agency....the biggest chunk of the expenses are not paid until we have custody of the baby. I think we probably have 12-15K left to pay....some depends on how many lawyers end up involved and how long baby is in bridge care. That is the home they use for the baby between birth and the court date to terminate rights. Sometimes they get a court date in 3 weeks, some counties like Milwaukee might be 5 weeks. I will NOT bring a baby home until the court date....before that is a legal risk and I do know of a couple who did that and she changed her mind after he was with them for a few days. Eventually they did get matched again and it worked out just fine. So I just try to tell myself that there is a baby that will come along that will be meant for us and once matched and baby is home, they say it all comes together and you understand that you went through what you did because you were waiting for that particular baby. My DH rolls his eyes at that but I kind of believe that.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  4. #44254

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    I'm so sorry, Janet. It's really difficult when you're already suffering and then you have to add others' hopes/expectations/grief. That is a huge burden for you to carry. I hope you can come to a decision that brings you peace.
    -- mom to DD1 1/98 and DD2 10/09


  5. #44255
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    So sorry you're going through this, Janet (and Mandy and Jennifer). Is surrogacy an option? I know that India is a popular destination for surrogates, due to the lower costs, and the higher certainty that the mom won't cause problems down the road (they're mostly women that are working poor, have had all the kids they can handle, and are looking to surrogacy as a way to create a better life for themselves, educate their children, etc.).

  6. #44256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krystal5 View Post
    Thank you, Mandy, you always have wise words. And, despite the fact that I love your insight and wisdom and kind words... I HATE that you are dealing with similar. This should just never happen!!

    See, if it weren't for infertility, I did always want to adopt. But, not as a desperate last ditch attempt. Had things gone my way, I wanted two kids close in age, then a gap, then two more. I had always hoped that I would get pregnant quickly and easily, and then start the adoption process. I knew it'd take a while, so I figured I'd have two kids while I waited, hence the gap.

    But alas, that plan has been torn from me. In hindsight, I wish that I had started the adoption process right after Maiya- but instead I'd hoped that I could have another successful IUI (cheaper and faster than adoption, had it worked). And, in that scenario, I would have just given up on adoption, since the cost of the two IUI-babies would have been much higher than natural conception, and would have taken up the adoption funds, and it would have taken much more time than I'd originally anticipated.

    Of course, that didn't happen either. Now that I'm here, though... If I had a baby fall in my lap, I would JUMP at the chance. That baby would be my baby in a heart beat. Blood relation means little me, and in the case of my child, nothing. I would LOVE to adopt a baby / kid. What I do NOT want, and am not sure I can handle right now, is just the roller coaster associated with it. I, uh, know some people that could possibly end up with unwanted pregnancies, and if that happened, and if they asked me to adopt (which wouldn't happen, if I know them as well as I think I know them), I would jump through any hoops necessary. I could handle the roller coaster if I knew the outcome. It's the roller coaster with no guarantee at the end that I'm not sure I can handle right now.

    And thanks for the book suggestion! I will go google it now.
    I actually always thought I might adopt, too. But like you, it would be after having bio kids. So making that choice would be a big step in accepting that TTC is behind me and I'm not ready for that yet. Some people adopt in hopes that they will get pregnant just because they chose adoption. It shouldn't work like that.
    Me (39) DH (46) & furbabies * m/c 7/08 4/12 11/12

  7. #44257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwenn View Post
    I actually always thought I might adopt, too. But like you, it would be after having bio kids. So making that choice would be a big step in accepting that TTC is behind me and I'm not ready for that yet. Some people adopt in hopes that they will get pregnant just because they chose adoption. It shouldn't work like that.
    I had never thought I would adopt even though I have one cousin that is older and adopted and two younger that are adopted. I planned on two kids and being done by about 32. But once we realized that the plan wasn't happening, we knew we wouldn't do IVF and probably wouldn't even try an IUI. Our IF is unexplained and DH made is clear it was either both ours biologically or neither of ours. Donors, surrogates, never even an option to think about.

    I will say that there were six couples in my group and we are friends with a couple a group ahead of us (her group was only two people). Of the seven....three ended up pregnant (all went through IF) and per agency rules....were put on hold. Two adopted and two of us are still waiting....and she had a hysterectomy so it's impossible for a surprise pg. Absolutely shouldn't go into adoption expecting a surprise but it definitely does happen. I do think some people keep TTC and even doing treatments while starting the adoption process to see which one works out first.

    In the end it's just something that only a couple can decide. For us it wasn't really a hard decision that felt right and like a weight was lifted off of us......but sticking with it has been hard at times if you remember any of my wavering back and forth. It definitely feels better now that we have started doing things like getting the room ready and yesterday I bought an infant seat/stroller combo that was a great cyber monday deal.
    It is vastly helpful to have family supportive of the adoption decision but you cannot do it because they want it.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  8. #44258
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    Based on my reading (from RESOLVE, the infertility support organization), 8% of couples who adopt go on to have a biological child, which is the exact same percentage as the number of couples who choose not to adopt after infertility and later get pregnant with a surprise naturally. It certainly happens, but there is a perception out there that this is common and that the fact you adopted will somehow make you more likely to get pregnant. I've had several people tell me that if I adopt, I will get pregnant. Demonstrably false but it is a very overhyped myth about adoption/infertility and that is what I was referring to. Of course, couples who pursue IVF while going through adoption are different ... But probably account for part of that 8% so likely it is even lower when just looking at couples who conceive on their own.
    Me (39) DH (46) & furbabies * m/c 7/08 4/12 11/12

  9. #44259
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    I haven't been to resolve for years, maybe like five. I agree that adopting isn't likely to change if one will end up pg or not. It's just that does happen. Often enough for my agency to have a if you get pg while waiting policy in place. I was really shocked that 3 out of our 6 couples ended up pg. But happy that they dropped out. Far as I know none were going through treatments...but I would say that I think all 3 were unexplained and only tried about 2 years before jumping into adoption. my agency has a waiting FB group and I know of two others who ended up pg. My agency keeps about 80 families waiting....only take the next year about the number of placements the year before.
    So that works out in my case to about 30 couples I know either on the FB group or my home study group and so far 5 pgs. So more like 15% for my agency in the past year or two...of those that I know.

    I don't expect to end up pg but given being unexplained, if the timing was about right, even now I do get hopes up just a tiny bit. I don't think it will go away until menopause. You would think more than 7 years and never once a positive and I would give it up totally but the tiny bit of hope is still there....just much smaller after all this time.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

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    BTW, I asked Mira's teacher, and she said it would be disruptive/cause hurt feelings if she took paintings for some kids, but not others, so we handed them out at pickup time, in the afternoon. You'd think she's Marie Cassat or something, because she got requests (and is working on them right now).

  11. #44261
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    30 couples is a very small sample, statistically speaking, and since you are including couples who dropped out of the adoption process due to pregnancy, they wouldn't be included in the population of couples who conceive after adopting a child. So really, you are comparing apples to oranges, but even so, it seems like your numbers aren't that far off from what RESOLVE found allowing for greater variance in a smaller sample. Pretty much we are agreed that yes, it happens sometimes, but far from the majority of couples and adoption wasn't the cause of the couple later becoming pregnant.

    I don't think it would be humanly possible not to hope each time around. It's the most agonizing thing about the whole STC fiasco.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suja View Post
    BTW, I asked Mira's teacher, and she said it would be disruptive/cause hurt feelings if she took paintings for some kids, but not others, so we handed them out at pickup time, in the afternoon. You'd think she's Marie Cassat or something, because she got requests (and is working on them right now).
    How awesome!
    Last edited by Gwenn; 12-03-2013 at 05:32 PM.
    Me (39) DH (46) & furbabies * m/c 7/08 4/12 11/12

  12. #44262
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    Aww how cute is that Suja.


    Mandy yeah I know it's a small number and not some scientific thing....just a personal experience that kind of surprised me...I thought maybe one in the group might end up pg but not half the group. All those I knew had finished the home study and were waiting like we are. So I was glad to get them off the books because it just moved us further to the front. Birth mom's can look at the whole book but I think that there is probably an advantage to being towards the front and think after a while, many couples and letters probably start to sound the same. Plus I'm kind of hoping towards a safe haven baby so needed all those who finished before I did to get out of the book. I always had a feeling we would be last in our group....well now we are among the last two. So definitely hoping my friend gets her match soon because I feel like we would follow shortly after. I'm feeling maybe spring.....

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  13. #44263

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    Poor Kai is on day 3 of a tummy bug. He threw up once Monday, once yesterday. Today he keeps sharting. He's mortified about that and I'm not thrilled about it either. Ugh. Day 3 of not being able to leave the house and the weather is yucky so can't even send anyone outside. Thank goodness for Netflix. I mean, can one really ever watch too many dinosaur documentaries?
    Actually, kind of. Lol

  14. #44264
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    Poor puppy! Hope everyone else stays healthy.

  15. #44265
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    Hope that Kai feels better soon and doesn't share!

    So my van is a 2012, bought in august last year. Dec last year it had an oil leak....in a hard spot to find and reach but after removing the transmission, they did and thought it was just a slightly bad seal. Well over Thanksgiving it started leaking at my parents house. OMG. So brought in yesterday and it's the same freaking thing leaking. Great that it's under warranty, not great that it's the same thing a year later. I literally have 8K miles on this thing....we mostly drive in town except the once in a while road trip. Dealer has been on the phone and sending pictures to chrysler.....they told him to put in a new engine. Of course it's on back order. I'm picking up a rental after work tomorrow.
    There was talk about options for a new van....but yeah, not going to take out another 72 month loan when my current one should be paid off in the next year....he's been putting at least double on most months to get it gone.

    I haven't even talked to DH yet about all of this since he didn't get much sleep yesterday dealing with this and bringing me to work and picking me up (I don't drive his car usually and the weather has sucked the last two days with snow and such). but there is no way he would fall for that. If they were going to do a mostly straight up trade....but not a whole new loan that is what our current one is. Not when my van only has 8K on it!

    I really love my van and am thinking if that the problem spot was in the engine so hopefully a new engine solves it.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  16. #44266
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    I don't know much about lemon laws, but if they sold you a bad vehicle aren't they obligaged to replace it or repair it in some way? They should not be trying to sell you a new van if the one they sold you in the first place wasn't good.
    Me (39) DH (46) & furbabies * m/c 7/08 4/12 11/12

  17. #44267
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    Nope doesn't work in my state. Has to be under a year old, have to either given them four times to fix the same problem.....or has to be that I didn't have access to drive it for 30 days. I want to say last time it was close to two weeks. But now it's over a year old so none of the lemon laws apply.

    They fixed it the first time and it was fine for almost exactly a year. Since it's the same thing in the same spot in the engine, I'm getting a new engine.
    I just cannot believe that they thought I would fall it....yeah let's double my current loan and extend all those years just for something 2 model years newer when I only have 8K on it.
    Last two cars I dealt with the same sales guy but he's on leave so today it was someone new to me.

    I will take the new engine! Plus I'm kind of attached to my van. I really love it minus this oil leak thing. And I am making them pick up a rental for me...either I'm getting another van to drive around or at least a full size car, not a tiny little cheap one. We could get away with one car but I don't want to.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  18. #44268

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    Thank you SO MUCH for all that, Jennifer! Very helpful. That's amazing about the cost, wow.

    Thank you all for the sympathies, too. I'm sorry to whine so much!

    Suja, yes, I've definitely considered surrogate. But I either have to use my own embryos, which I worry would just miscarry, like 50% of my embryos have, or use someone else's. If I use someone else's, I feel like I should just adopt, anyway. Plus, even though I may have to wait longer, there's a little more guarantee for the money. I mean, if my surrogate miscarries, then it's just over. You know? Man, that sounds horrible, doesn't it?

    I'm think I'm leaning towards just forgetting about it for now, and then maybe thinking about it again next summer, after I've had some time to heal, and after Japan, and after we get a better idea of when and where we'll be moving. And I figure, if I don't get pregnant in that year, where I focus on healing, stabilizing my weight, eating healthy and being as stress free as my life will ever get, then I'll feel pretty confident I won't be one of those 8%!

    Suja, that's adorable! Has she handed out her gifts yet? How did the recipients like them?

    Poor Kai! I hope he is feeling better soon. And poor you, too! No fun.

    Jennifer, hope your van is working again soon!

    As for me, we're moving right along. Almost done with all the projects for my house. Started the process to get Maiya a passport. And are narrowing down the tickets we will buy! Looks like we'll be there about 2 1/2 months. So excited!! Maiya will probably not be able to be in a preschool after all, but hopefully we'll find a day care for her. Which will probably be better, anyway. Free play is good for her! And, though it's all by chance, it looks like my Japanese exchange student will be able to go to Maiya's class regularly and teach all the kids some Japanese and a bit about Japanese geography and culture, for the entire month before we leave. What a great transition!!

    And, I want to say thanks, guys, for not kicking me out, even though I'm only active every few days or so. I just got kicked out of a group on Facebook that apparently had an un-stated quota of activity, and I seem to have not met this arbitrary, randomly and without warning decided quota. Some support group!! So thank you all for being a little more accepting.



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    Dude. Not only will we never kick you out, but if you leave we will hunt you down.
    Wait, was that nice or creepy?

  20. #44270
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    B....I vote nice! And really how awful to kick someone out for something like that!

    Janet, I am glad you are still going to Japan, when you mentioned adoption I wasn't sure if you were thinking of putting that on hold. It is definitely good to take a bit of time and just enjoy your trip. the first part of the adoption process is such a PITA. It is invasive and time-consuming. We had pages and pages of questions to answer, autobiographies to write, financial papers, health papers...including a physical complete with HIV and drug testing, background checks, fingerprints, classes, writing the dear birth mom letter, putting together the portfolios (OMG to that one....took me a few months to get ours done!), getting together proof of various insurances and employment. Oh and proof of the dog having vaccines. It was very overwhelming and almost made us feel like giving it. Oh and references and a statement of faith. it took months for me to get everything together and done. Much better idea to go on your trip and just plan on prepping for that right now.

    and no I don't think that sounds horrible. I pretty much felt the same thing. If I had insurance coverage for IVF, I might have thought about it but the risk wasn't worth the money and adoption felt a safer choice. Plus I kind of feel like there is a reason I'm ending up pg....we don't know why it hasn't happened so maybe something is off with my eggs or just not compatible with DH. Instead of going through so much effort and risk just to have a biological kid (when maybe there is a reason we don't after more than 7 years)....we could be parents to a baby that needs a good home and good parents.

    As for my van....still waiting on the new engine. went to the dealer to pick up my rental yesterday and they gave me a freaking Jetta. I HATE it and DH is exchanging it right now. I was supposed to get a van or full-size car. I'm used to driving a big car and being up off the ground. The Jetta was so uncomfortable for me and even DH got in this morning and was like, this isn't comfortable at all. I'm really hoping he calls and tells me he got a van or a SUV. I am really missing my van and DH is getting tired of carting me to work and picking me up.

    And it's super freaking cold up here. We aren't supposed to be this cold until next month.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
    Dude. Not only will we never kick you out, but if you leave we will hunt you down.
    Wait, was that nice or creepy?
    Ha! Some of us know where you live.
    -- mom to DD1 1/98 and DD2 10/09


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    Quote Originally Posted by pepperlru View Post
    Ha! Some of us know where you live.
    Now that is slightly more creepy sounding. LOL

    Like my DH will say....I know where you sleep. LOL

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

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    Nobody gets kicked out of this group! Too bad some people like to be like that on Facebook. I don't like to be part of many groups on Facebook because I wouldn't keep up with most.

    I have such a busy weekend and week ahead. It's going to be hectic with all the school work, essay writing and get-togethers that are planned.

    I really should get a move on and do something, but it's cold so Cash and me are sharing a blanket on the couch. Rich is tidying and making supper. I should feel guilty for him doing it all, but I don't because I oftentimes feel like I've done more than my share. Lol.

    I hope everyone has lovely weekends. I'm always lurking around here more than posting!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
    Dude. Not only will we never kick you out, but if you leave we will hunt you down.
    Wait, was that nice or creepy?
    Yup. Absolutely.
    Me (39) DH (46) & furbabies * m/c 7/08 4/12 11/12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
    Dude. Not only will we never kick you out, but if you leave we will hunt you down.
    Wait, was that nice or creepy?
    Yeah, not only do some of us know where you live, but some of us live pretty close and have a small army living with us.

    I love that smiley.

    I am happy whenever I see you post and I figure you are busy or taking a break when you are not posting, Janet, as I assume with everyone. I always feel vaguely guilty when I'm not responding to everyone or not posting much, but I also feel totally busy all the time and when I am posting I'm not doing something else I should be doing. (For example, DH right now is waiting for me to join him on the couch for a nightly chat and an episode of The Borgias.) I assume everyone else is forgiving and relaxed about coming in and out of here. After all, we welcome people who are not regulars. We welcome regulars. We can totally and completely understand intermittents.

    Speaking of, off to the couch! And Janet, we need to see each other in the flesh sometime soon! If that didn't sound creepy, I don't know what would. And the kids keep saying we need to give Maiya back her dinosaur.


  26. #44276

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    You all crack me up! I love you.

    Jennifer, thank you SSOOOO much for all that info! That was kind of the key bit of info I needed. I will DEFINITELY wait until minimum next summer, then. Everyone I talked to (who doesn't know) kept saying I could be done in just one or two months, so before Japan. Hah! I didn't think that was the case, but I'm glad to know for sure now. It will be really nice to not think about it for a while. Which is, of course, why I quit in the first place!

    Speaking of not thinking about it though... Remember I said that so far this cycle we hadn't had sex, and I was loving it? And I was nearing my fertile window? Well, we went and sex anyway. Now all these stupid thoughts are going through my head!! Old habits die hard, hah.

    Hope you and DH are having a great night! Glad you get a moment to relax a bit. We definitely need to see each other! My weekends are packed through the holidays, though. Do you have any days when you and S are both home? We'd love to get together! And our weekdays are relatively free, except for when she's in school, and her next speech class (wait, Mandy, if she's not a speech teacher, is it not a speech class? Speech appointment? Hmm...) this Thursday. We need to give you your book back! Maiya is always saying how it's so nice that S lent it to her. She is not, however, reminding me constantly that we need to give it back. More like, reading it so much I swear she's trying to memorize it!



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    Lol, no! It isn't a speech class. It's a speech therapy session or appointment.
    Me (39) DH (46) & furbabies * m/c 7/08 4/12 11/12

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    Speech class is the one where they make you go up in front of everyone and make you say stuff no one is paying attention to in the first place, so the instructor can tell you that you're mixing up your 'v' and 'w' sounds (common in people from the Indian subcontinent). That was my experience, anyway.

  29. #44279
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    In my head
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    Well, I was thinking speech and debate, but pretty much, yes. Not the same thing at all.
    Me (39) DH (46) & furbabies * m/c 7/08 4/12 11/12

  30. #44280

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    I just got hives thinking about my speech class. That's the stuff my nightmares are made of.

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