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Thread: Secular Confessions

  1. #43381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
    Yeah, I am starting to think it's less about what we do that makes them who they are and more about just-who they ARE. And if we lead our lives being the best people we can, working hard, showing grace and kindness in everything we do (including our interactions with them) that that is how they will learn to walk that path. Not because if they didn't they couldn't have ice cream.
    I'm convinced of it. Some kids grow up and overcome such extremely horrendous life circumstances, with very few (if any) positive role models. How do they do it? It must be their personality. We've all experienced the flip side as well...apparently wonderful family has that one kid that acts like he/she doesn't even belong to them. All the siblings are fine, just the one chronic law breaker/douchebag/whatever.

    Mama to Bobbie 20 ~ Jesi 18 ~ Syd 14 ~ Conner 6
    I'm gonna be a Gramama! Jesi is due 11/22/13


  2. #43382
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    I'm especially convinced of it because I know for a fact Bobbie and Jesi were raised exactly the same-same parents, economical status, rules, etc. They even dressed the same. They are night and day in personalities, academics, abilities, and limitations.

    Mama to Bobbie 20 ~ Jesi 18 ~ Syd 14 ~ Conner 6
    I'm gonna be a Gramama! Jesi is due 11/22/13


  3. #43383
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    You can't possibly imagine two people more different than my brother and I. We are completely different people, and my parents raised us exactly the same. Yes, nurture matters - but nature has a heck of a lot of say in how we turn out. And I know my mother had major issues with my sister - because my sister is a major control freak. She's still a major control freak, but now that she's the mom she doesn't have to worry about that. When my parents were in charge, it was huge enormous tantrums because she just couldn't stand someone else having a say in how she lived her life. That never went away, although she did outgrow the tantrums. My brother and I weren't like that because we aren't control freaks to the extent that she is.
    Me (40) DH (47) & furbabies * m/c 7/08 4/12 11/12

  4. #43384

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    I have a hard time with the case by case approach because if I let him buy something one day, then the next time, he'll say, "But you let me buy something last time!" I don't think it will be logical enough for him if I make it completely arbitrary.

  5. #43385
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    Quote Originally Posted by missychrissy View Post
    I can't speak for anyone else, but what I meant by the 'ask one time' rule was immediately-at that moment-in the store. Jesi is the only one I recall throwing a fit over a toy she wanted, and I really stuck to it. She was about 3 at the time, and when she was 12 we happened to see the same toy again. I pointed at it and said, "You could have had that for your 4th birthday if you didn't have a temper tantrum in the store about it." She laughed and said she remembered that. That was the one and only time any of my girls had a fit in a store. They never did in a restaurant.

    Conner, however, is a completely different story. Those tactics didn't/don't work.
    Yeah it was like Chrissy said. Wasn't like we couldn't ask about it again at a different point in time or say something, you know there was that barbie at shopko that was really cool. It was just while we were at that store at that time. My mom just didn't want to deal with whining and tantrums in public. We didn't get stuff just because we were at the store....plus there were times when money was tight and my mom just couldn't really afford it (though when younger I didn't know much about their money issues when dad was laid off). Or my mom just didn't want a small house to be filled with crap. And than there were times if we asked nicely, we actually got that toy.
    I mean I talk to DH all the time about what I want as I have a whole lot more wants than he does. LOL But it has to be done a reasonable way. So we talk, table it, do some research, talk some more, table it, talk again and maybe finally buy it when the timing is right.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  6. #43386
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    I think it has to be a combo. Because on the flip side there are many cases of adoptive families where the kids are often very similar to the adoptive parents....not always of course but it definitely is there. I look at my cousins and see so much of who they are is because of my aunts and how they are being raised and there is nothing genetic between them.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  7. #43387

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    Of course. Yes. I think my point was more accepting them for what they are and not expecting them to be what you want them to be. I see myself in my kids for sure. Anyone you spend a significant amount of time with in your life will influence you.

    A lot of what I am spouting off in here is just me trying to work through the changes I am making in my own home. I don't have anyone to bounce my feelings/ideas off of.

  8. #43388
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    So you know we have talked about hair recently....I was at my stylist today and asked about what to do with mine. It's shorter than it's been in years after I donated and of course I'm not liking the products I have been trying and they don't have the gel I used to use. I have been wanting something where if I showered in the morning, I could put something in and scrunch it and let it air dry. But not be all crunchy and wet looking. Thinking this might be easier to do when I have a baby instead of the drawn out process at night. right away she suggested paste. I had never even heard of paste for my hair before. Tried it on my hair tonight to see what I thought before I go out buying some and I think I might like it and this could work. So yeah I am kind of excited that I might be on to something to help tame my hair and let me wear the curls at least some of the time.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  9. #43389
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    I admit that I'm kind of sensitive to the nature/nurture. I mean I KNOW both count but I'm hoping like hell that the nurture is stronger since we are adopting and it was kind of hard of me to let go of the idea of a mini-me. Or a mini-Dh.

    And well I also believe that reality is perception. We all have different lives and experiences and so our realities are going to all be different.

    Just maybe you all will be kind to me and not laugh *TOO* hard with the I told ya so's?

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  10. #43390

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    What I think is that each human has certain innate qualities and how those qualities work out for them depends very, very much on how they are nurtured.

  11. #43391
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    Forgive the dog analogy, but I believe it to be true of people too. There are some, whose basic nature is just so solid, it takes a lot of effort to wreck it. There are others, who are temperamentally so unsound, without careful nurture, they'd be wrecks. Most fall along that continuum, probably in a bell curve.

  12. #43392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
    What I think is that each human has certain innate qualities and how those qualities work out for them depends very, very much on how they are nurtured.

    Like!

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  13. #43393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suja View Post
    Forgive the dog analogy, but I believe it to be true of people too. There are some, whose basic nature is just so solid, it takes a lot of effort to wreck it. There are others, who are temperamentally so unsound, without careful nurture, they'd be wrecks. Most fall along that continuum, probably in a bell curve.
    I love and relate to dog analogies. I can see that with my girls. Different breeds, different ages...different in many ways...but in some ways they are very much alike and that I think is how we've raised them.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  14. #43394
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    Jennifer, you know you could have a biological child and have it turn out nothing like you or dh, right? I mean, that appeared to have happened with Bobbie. Sure, she went through a traumatic experience and I have little doubt that played into it, but even before that happened she had traits that aren't in her genetic makeup whatsoever. The key one is a tendency to be lazy. And by lazy, I mean not even wanting to bath for days on end. She's over all that now (I think!) but it was something I had to battle/bargain/plead/trick/demand with her about for years. That's just one example.

    But she's brilliantly book smart and has been aware of the world from a very young age. She's been into every political election she is old enough to remember and can debate anyone on that topic. She's 20 now, but she was like that at 12. I didn't even know the difference between a republican and democrat (because I frankly didn't care) until I was over 25 years old. Rich knew less than I did. She didn't get any of that from us!

    Mama to Bobbie 20 ~ Jesi 18 ~ Syd 14 ~ Conner 6
    I'm gonna be a Gramama! Jesi is due 11/22/13


  15. #43395
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    We used to tease her frequently, actually, about her strong academics. Rich was also a high school drop out (he did get his GED, before I did actually). We'd say, "All kids have to rebel. Leave it to Bobbie to be the scholar rebelling against her two high school drop out parents!" I even threatened to make her stay home from school if she didn't clean her room-and it worked! That was a desperate attempt after a number of weeks of threatening everything under the sun to make her do it. She was in 6th or 7th grade at the time. It was funny and has ended up being one of our favorite family stories.

    It was also the last time I ever had to get witchy about her cleaning her room. I'd just ask her if she wanted to do it the next school day instead.

    Mama to Bobbie 20 ~ Jesi 18 ~ Syd 14 ~ Conner 6
    I'm gonna be a Gramama! Jesi is due 11/22/13


  16. #43396
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    Yeah I know but figured that there was at least a decent chance to get a little person that was like us. I see a lot of his mom and dad in him.....there is a lot of my parents in myself and my sister (even though we are different). DH and I are a lot alike in many ways and were raised fairly similarly and can see us doing it how we were raised. So I figured that a bio kid stood a decent chance of being like us or one of our family members. Actually the genes in DH's family on his dad's side seem to be pretty strong. He looks like his dad when he was young and has an awful lot of similar personality characteristics. His half brother and half sister also strongly take after their dad's side. DH's mom was just saying that often he does a gesture or a look or something about him and she does a double take and it's like being transported back in time 30-35 years. Dh's mom did raise him but his parents didn't divorce until he was five and he's had some contact with his dad after that. So hard to say how much was ingrained the first 5 years and how much is just his nature strongly taking after his dad's side.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  17. #43397
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    I think Suja's dog analogy is spot on. I look at myself and my siblings and I see the enormous baggage about our childhood that my sister carries around and how I went through the same things and didn't have the same reactions at all. She honestly considers our father to have been abusive. I think my father was a clueless man who loved us but had no ability to relate to children. As an adult, I understand my father much better and he and I can really talk to one another - where I don't think the same can be said of my father and my sister. I also think growing up with my dad has given me an innate understanding of people with differing social abilities and interaction styles where my sister can be very hung up on whether something he says/does is proper etiquette or not. Not that we were raised with proper etiquette (we were taught manners, don't get me wrong) but just as an illustration of how a childhood that taught me some valuable life lessons may have come close to squelching my sister. You wouldn't think it to know us superficially - but I think you guys do actually know this about me - I'm a fighter, and she's not. So I reflect completely differently on the "nurture" we both experienced.

    Somewhere I read something - I'll share if I can find the link - basically the influence of nurture is at its most essential when environment is poor. Kids from low SES backgrounds where families were struggling to make ends meet and put food on the table were the most impacted by differences in parenting style. Children from upper-middle class to wealthy homes, who never had to worry about what to eat or what to wear or what to play with, showed very little difference in outcome given a variety of parenting styles. Of course, the sad truth of reality is that those were exactly the children who were much more likely to have advantages in terms of two parents, possibly a stay-at-home parent, access to good education, good food, good medical care - while the low SES kids who could have benefitted most may have had none of those things. But I definitely believe nurture is more important with the extreme ends of the bell curve behaviorally, environmentally, etc than it is with the peak of the bell curve. Not that I'm de-emphasizing the importance of nurture - not at all. I just think as mentioned above, it really, truly is both and how they interact.
    Me (40) DH (47) & furbabies * m/c 7/08 4/12 11/12

  18. #43398

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    So far, my kids have been pretty good about not asking for something every time we go in a store. Or if they do, they are easily distracted by what is in the next aisle. I think I may start a process so they can start earning a little of their own money to buy things. If M does ask for something that is more than a small token item (usually she covets hair accessories, etc), I will often say that she can add it to her xmas/birthday wish list. I'm not sure if that is the right tactic, but it seems to work and then when bday or xmas rolls around, I evaluate whether she really will still want it or not (provided that I remember what it was!). We don't really shop much at all, besides the grocery store. I do most of my shopping online simply for lack of time.

    As far as nature vs nurture, I certainly think it's a mix of both. DD looks like me, but does not really act much like me at all. She is very into princesses/dresses/sparkly things and I am so not a girly-girl. She sought these things out 90% on her own without me influencing her. But at the same time, she loves the outdoors, doesn't mind getting dirty, likes looking for bugs and critters and isn't overly squeamish about them, likes to go fishing, etc. In that sense, she is 100% my daughter, lol. My BIL joked that she's perfectly comfortable in a tutu and hiking boots. DS on the other hand is A LOT like my DH. He likes order and cleaning and he's always moving. He's very sports oriented, which is more like me. All in all, they are both their own, independent little people and I love watching them grow and learn.
    AKA Lisa724

  19. #43399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmosmom View Post
    Yeah I know but figured that there was at least a decent chance to get a little person that was like us. I see a lot of his mom and dad in him.....there is a lot of my parents in myself and my sister (even though we are different).
    I do think we pick up mannerisms and such from the people we're closest to. My nephew is biologically not my brother in law's, but he stands and gestures like him. But I think the core of who we are and (aside from truly extenuating circumstances) how we cope with and manage stress and life in general are simply genetically wired into us.

    I'm an introvert. I'm 100% confident I'd have been an introvert even if I'd been given up for adoption. I also suffered tremendous anxiety as a child, especially in school. That, I think, could have been different. I started K just 5 months after my mom first showed signs of psychosis and had to be inpatient for the first time. It also coincided with my brother's birth. Compounded with all that, I was a 4 year old and probably not ready to start K. Those issues could have been avoided I think, and perhaps at least my elementary school years wouldn't have been so painful for me. But I'd definitely be an introvert regardless of what my circumstances were. That's just who I am. How I first internalized and processed all that stress and morphed (with time) into a non-shy introvert is also just who I am. No one gave me those skills (curses? depends how you look at it). I was born with them.
    Last edited by missychrissy; 08-15-2013 at 05:54 AM.

    Mama to Bobbie 20 ~ Jesi 18 ~ Syd 14 ~ Conner 6
    I'm gonna be a Gramama! Jesi is due 11/22/13


  20. #43400

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    I am introvert too but I never realized that was on ok thing to be! So as soon as I could I just started drinking and that knocked the introvert right out of me! Savana is an introvert as well and her and I talk about it all the time so that she can find ways to still be social without going out of her comfort zone. I wish someone had done that for me. I had a lot of anxiety as well. I feel like I just walked around for years as a child with this feeling of dread in my belly.

  21. #43401
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    There are twin studies out there, that show that certain behaviors and character traits are hard wired. In these studies, the twins were separated at birth (not for the purpose of study, just twins adopted out to different families), and of course, grew up under different circumstances, sometimes on different continents, and lots of behaviors - like risk taking, addiction - were pretty much the same (or closely aligned).

  22. #43402
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    Quote Originally Posted by missychrissy View Post
    I'm convinced of it. Some kids grow up and overcome such extremely horrendous life circumstances, with very few (if any) positive role models. How do they do it? It must be their personality. We've all experienced the flip side as well...apparently wonderful family has that one kid that acts like he/she doesn't even belong to them. All the siblings are fine, just the one chronic law breaker/douchebag/whatever.
    Quote Originally Posted by missychrissy View Post
    I'm especially convinced of it because I know for a fact Bobbie and Jesi were raised exactly the same-same parents, economical status, rules, etc. They even dressed the same. They are night and day in personalities, academics, abilities, and limitations.
    Like the difference between myself and my 'can't keep a job, stay away from drugs, get drunk and end up passed out in the street' brother???

    Things are a little crazy, but I'm loving every minute of it My Blog


  23. #43403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suja View Post
    There are twin studies out there, that show that certain behaviors and character traits are hard wired. In these studies, the twins were separated at birth (not for the purpose of study, just twins adopted out to different families), and of course, grew up under different circumstances, sometimes on different continents, and lots of behaviors - like risk taking, addiction - were pretty much the same (or closely aligned).
    I did a paper on this, just this passed year. It is a massive twin study (and if I didn't have a sinus infection/cold I could probably remember the name of it).

    Twins, separated at birth, didn't even know they were a twin in most isntances, raised a country apart. One in particular that stands out they smoked the same brand of cigarettes, had animals/kids named the same (or really similar), both had first marriages to a lady with the same name (which both ended in divorce), and had some of the favorite restaurants, etc. It was an interesting study.

    Things are a little crazy, but I'm loving every minute of it My Blog


  24. #43404
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    Quote Originally Posted by missychrissy View Post
    I do think we pick up mannerisms and such from the people we're closest to. My nephew is biologically not my brother in law's, but he stands and gestures like him. But I think the core of who we are and (aside from truly extenuating circumstances) how we cope with and manage stress and life in general are simply genetically wired into us.
    I have to agree with that as well. Genetics have a much stronger impact, but in a lot of ways - environment does affect who we are. My brother (which is a convenient example being that we have different dads biologically, but we were raised by the same set of parents) still managed to pick up a lot of my dads mannerisms.

    His biological father was a very laid back, laughable person who never really took life all that seriously. My biological dad, raised him, and because of his lack of a sense of humor and seriousness about life, squashed that part of my brother and he, still, fights that part of him. So instead of funny goofy/its anger and resentment. It's been a hard transition to watch him go through.

    Things are a little crazy, but I'm loving every minute of it My Blog


  25. #43405
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    Genetics is crazy. I'm very different from my brother and sister, who are somewhat similar in personality.

  26. #43406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
    I am introvert too but I never realized that was on ok thing to be! So as soon as I could I just started drinking and that knocked the introvert right out of me! Savana is an introvert as well and her and I talk about it all the time so that she can find ways to still be social without going out of her comfort zone. I wish someone had done that for me. I had a lot of anxiety as well. I feel like I just walked around for years as a child with this feeling of dread in my belly.
    Exactly. There's nothing wrong with being shy at all, and it's awful that society treats shy children as if they're afflicted with something. John & I talked about this and he remembers his mom saying, "He's shy" when introducing him to her friends. He didn't know what that meant exactly, but it definitely gave him the impression there was something wrong with him.

    Mama to Bobbie 20 ~ Jesi 18 ~ Syd 14 ~ Conner 6
    I'm gonna be a Gramama! Jesi is due 11/22/13


  27. #43407
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    Quote Originally Posted by missychrissy View Post
    Exactly. There's nothing wrong with being shy at all, and it's awful that society treats shy children as if they're afflicted with something. John & I talked about this and he remembers his mom saying, "He's shy" when introducing him to her friends. He didn't know what that meant exactly, but it definitely gave him the impression there was something wrong with him.
    That's a good point. Nolan definitely takes after DH in being an introvert (extreme), whereas I fall somewhere in the middle. I'll have to watch the way I present that to others, in front of him. I definitely don't think there is anything wrong with it though, but it can be difficult sometimes in social situations to find a balance between allowing him time to get comfortable, without negative comments from people. DHs family and mine are both bad about that. They think we've kept him too secluded and babied him too much and that's why he's stand-offish with new people. Ignoring the fact that he has, quite literally, been the same way since he was an infant. Not to mention they all know DH quite well and it is blaringly obvious how uncomfortable *he* is in social situations, so what is the surprise that our son would be the same way??
    Last edited by Smplyme89; 08-15-2013 at 08:59 AM.

    Things are a little crazy, but I'm loving every minute of it My Blog


  28. #43408

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    Oh my goodness I can't stand it when people say their kids are shy right in front of them.

  29. #43409
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    Mira is slow to warm up, but not really shy. I'm not sure how to let others know that, without putting a negative spin on it. I usually end up saying something along the lines of 'Wait till she gets going. She'll talk your ear off' or something along those lines.

  30. #43410
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    I woke up this morning with a very stiff neck, wrists, knees and just kind of general aches. I don't think I have a fever...if I do it's not very high. Not sure if I just slept super weird or what...I have woke up with aches since we got the memory foam mattress last year. But I'm still hurting and have been up for 4 hours.
    No tick bites that I know of....I live in a very high tick/lyme area but only have been in my yard. I almost didn't come to work this morning but I have a webinar this afternoon that I wanted to attend.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

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