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Thread: Secular Confessions

  1. #31441

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbbeysMom View Post
    congrats!


    And Katy, there is nothing worse than the smell of cat pee.
    Seriously. I have had to toss two of J's dresses, a shirt and a hat that were on the floor in her room. Sneaky little cat. The letterbox is 5 feet away, yet she drags her blind little self through two rooms and down a hallway and into either my closet or J's room to pee. It is driving me crazy. I washed everything I own this past weekend just to make sure I wasn't missing something stinky. But the smell doesn't even wash out after three washes with baking soda and vinegar and oxy clean and borax and cat pee spray and simple green. Ugh.

    "Any idiot can face a crisis; it is this day-to-day living that wears you out." -Anton Chekhov


  2. #31442

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    Ugh, huge hugs to all you ladies who had bad days/nights. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has moments that they are less than proud of. After a stressful day at work, sometimes seemingly normal toddler behavior pushes me over the edge. DD always wants to help make dinner and there are certain "no touching" rules that apply. Some days she's great, but other days she will all of a sudden have a handful of raw chicken or something. I want to let her explore, but sometimes I just have to say, enough, and have her go watch tv for a few or play in her room.
    AKA Lisa724

  3. #31443
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    Aww, hugs to all the mamas that have had rough days/nights with their little ones.

    Mandy, I wouldn't think twice about your dh's talking in his sleep. We all have dreams that have nothing to do with who we are. We say/do things in them that we'd never do. Try not to take it personally. I've had 'wild' dreams about men I'd never, ever sleep with and was very vocal about it. Apparently.

    Katy, that's great about the job opportunity. So it's not much money right now, but it's experience and something to add to your portfolio so you can go after bigger income projects in the future.

    Mama to Bobbie 20 ~ Jesi 18 ~ Syd 14 ~ Conner 6
    I'm gonna be a Gramama! Jesi is due 11/22/13


  4. #31444

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    Quote Originally Posted by girlwonder View Post
    Seriously. I have had to toss two of J's dresses, a shirt and a hat that were on the floor in her room. Sneaky little cat. The letterbox is 5 feet away, yet she drags her blind little self through two rooms and down a hallway and into either my closet or J's room to pee. It is driving me crazy. I washed everything I own this past weekend just to make sure I wasn't missing something stinky. But the smell doesn't even wash out after three washes with baking soda and vinegar and oxy clean and borax and cat pee spray and simple green. Ugh.
    I'm struggling with being a good cat owner too. Our cats now live outside because after Abbey was born, the older one started peeing secretly everywhere, just like you described. In the end when we sold our house we had to replace all the carpet first (about $6000). I tried for months to convince DH to let them stay indoors but he wouldn't budge (actually, he wanted to send them to his parents farm, but I wouldn't let him). It sounds cold of him but his little girl was learning how to crawl and would occasionally end up smelling like cat urine, which is beyond disgusting and infuriating.

    Now we just had the incident last weekend where the older one was covered in poop and pee on her bottom half, and I was washing her when we found out. Now I get to be tested for toxoplasmosis tomorrow at the OB and in general be worried about exposure to that. We took her to the vet to get full blood work done to find out if there was something wrong with her, but the final diagnosis is that she's too fat to clean herself and needs to go on a diet. She also peed in her carrier on the way to the vet, so guess what my car smells like?

    Seriously, this cat used to be my best friend, and now I have so much resentment towards her. I remember when one of our cats pooped in my mom's purse when I was growing up and how the cat "ran away" within a day or two after that. At that age I remember not caring about messes like that and being so tolerant of any animal issues. When we were driving back from the vet Abbey kept telling the kitty that it was "OK" and she loved her, etc. I miss feeling that type of overwhelming unconditional love for all animals, but I think it was transferred to feeling overwhelming unconditional love (and protectiveness) over my children. I would never stop taking care of my kitties but to say I still care about them the same way would be a lie.
    Last edited by AbbeysMom; 05-03-2012 at 06:13 AM.



    lost our bean to Triploidy Sep 2010

  5. #31445

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    I have had the same sort of transformation of feeling, Molly. My cat used to be my baby, but now that I have a baby the cat has definitely been pushed further down the ladder. I am feeling pretty upset that she is not doing well and will be very sad when she dies, but at the same time I am so resentful of all the added chores and stress and the fact that I am awakened every morning at 5:30 by her walking all over my legs and licking my feet.

    "Any idiot can face a crisis; it is this day-to-day living that wears you out." -Anton Chekhov


  6. #31446

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    So sorry about all the rough nights out there. Congrats on your job offer though Katy, it sounds like a great opportunity to me even if it is not much money. I always love to learn about new things and almost ever job I've ever had is something diffeernt than what I've had before.

    DH had a rough night last night. He got a call at 2am and was told his dad passed away, they think of a heart attack. FIL had just visited us a couple months ago. I told you ladies about how he puked in my bathroom and I had to clean it up. I feel so bad for DH. He has only recently started a relationship with his dad. FIL basically abandoned DH when he was 3 years old and DH didn't see him again until he was 25. DH is not one to be upset about things like that though, things that happened years and years ago that he doesn't feel had anything to do with him, so he was never upset at his dad, just sad that he missed out on having his dad's family in his life, especially after he got to meet them. His grandmother, FIL's mom, is still alive and she is just a wonderful, inspiring lady to both of us. I am more sad for her than anyone. He was the last of her children who was still alive so she has outlived all of them. Her daughter died at 18 in a car accident and her oldest son died about 15 years ago of a heart attack as well. FIL was already a source of discontent for her due to his continued drug use and drinking habits. He was a Vietnam Vet and she told me that that war destroyed her son and how he was never the same again. That he was still genuinely a nice person inside but that the things he had experienced had really altered the way he lived his life. He had told me of seeing little girls getting raped and killed in Vietnam when he was a young solder and just some horrible things. He was diagnosed with PTSD around the time DH and he started having more of a relationship. He was diagnosed in a drug treatment facility, where he had to stay for about 6 months. We are both pretty sure that drugs had something to do with his death, probably indirectly from using drugs so much over the years. He also drank to excess. There is a guy in my neighborhood who collects cans out of our recycling containers on garbage day and he takes them in for cash. When FIL was visiting I met him for the first time and talked to him because he wanted to thank me for all the cans he had gotten out of our recycling and how those were the richest weeks he had had LOL. FIL drank a 24 pack of beer every 2 days so that added up over the course of 2.5-3 weeks and the neighborhood guy was happy to be a beneficiary of such excesses.

    I have not told Ky about his death. Ky LOVED him because FIL loved kids, which is why I can understand how he was so bothered by the things he saw in the war. Pretty much everything he talked about was something horrible happening to children over there. He was the traditional grandfather in the sense that he bought Ky all sorts of goodies and he even had movies that he would let Ky watch, kid/PG13 superhero movies like Thor and Wolverine. He had a good bootleg movie guy LOL. Elle adored him too. But she likes all older men and calls all of them "granddaddy." She was so happy when he came to visit us a couple months ago because she got to have her very own granddaddy. She was excited about that and she was in tears when he left without saying goodbye to her. I think he was embarrassed because he heard DH and I have a semi-argument about him puking on my bathroom floor and not cleaning it up.

    But I know this will sadden Ky. I think we will wait until Saturday afternoon to tell him. A friend invited him to a party and he has a couple baseball games this weekend and I don't want him sad, thinking of death, right now. We will more than likely take the MegaBus to Memphis next week for FILs funeral.

    Erin

  7. #31447

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    Aw, Erin. I am so sorry for your family's loss. I agree with waiting to tell Ky until he does all of his things so he can enjoy them.
    My dad was in Vietnam. He never talks about it.
    Last edited by Bridget; 05-03-2012 at 08:59 AM.

  8. #31448

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    Katy, what is that? I hope you recover quickly!

  9. #31449
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    Thanks for indulging me ladies. I was pretty excited! I was SO nervous about that essay final! I made it through my first year back with 7 A’s and 1 B so I’m not complaining This mama deserves a drink

    Mandy I wouldn’t hold it against him (despite how hard it might be). DH has done the same thing to me actually. He literally cussed me out one night and had NO recollection of it the next day! It was really hard to accept though

    Liz that irritates me SO much! They know that people depend on that money and there just going oh you have to wait a few months Ridiculous! Good Luck with the interview! I think you’ll handle another newbie just fine!

    Erin I am so sorry for your family’s loss

    We put our kitty’s outside when Nolan was born. I just couldn’t handle the though of them crawling in to seep with him. It freaked me out. My eldest who was like my baby, won’t go anywhere near Nolan. It’s been over a year and she still has not warmed up to him and doesn’t really have much to do with me either

    For fear of judgement I haven't said anything, but I went back to smoking some months ago. I only mention it since I think I need to make myself accountable since I quit on Monday. I've been good so far, although I am using patches. I don't know why I started again, I was just so stressed. It started with just one here and there and just progressed..... So... anyway, there it is....

    Things are a little crazy, but I'm loving every minute of it My Blog


  10. #31450

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    Sorry about your FIL Erin

    No judgement here, Smplyme (Christina, right? I always forget, I'm sorry)

  11. #31451

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    Quote Originally Posted by daylilies View Post
    Katy, what is that? I hope you recover quickly!
    What is what? Am I sick?

    Erin, I am really sorry to hear about your FIL. It sounds like he really struggled

    "Any idiot can face a crisis; it is this day-to-day living that wears you out." -Anton Chekhov


  12. #31452
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    Oh Erin I'm so sorry for your family's loss.



    I admit that I do not get cats...never had one, never will as DH is highly allergic. But they sound like a major pain. I know of others who had the cat go in their purses and my coworker's cat likes to bite on a regular basis.

    I have always planned on a baby so I have prepped the girls for kids and making sure that they tolerate having feet, ears, tails, head touch and tugged on. Both of them like babies and kids a lot. Molly sometimes likes to mouth my hand and so we have been working on that. Doesn't bite but I don't like it. She didn't try it at all with my bff's baby when she was over so that was good. Molly just wanted to lick the baby and follow her everywhere she went. Molly is only 7.5 months old so by the time we do get a baby, she will be an awesome big sister and I think that they will end up best buddies. Cosmo was a bit less interested as she is older and we had food out so she was busy begging for that.
    I'm hoping that Molly will want to sleep with the kid....right now she is in her kennel at night in my room.

    I can see how the potty issues would drive one insane though. My dogs do have access to a litter box as well and I would be very upset with them if they started going all over my house. When MIL's dog was up, he started doing that and omg we were so mad at him. She actually left early because of it. He needs to be put down soon but she doesn't want to face it.


    Last night was diet class. So first week in and I lost 3.2 lbs. Probably actually a bit more but it's pms time and my bb's get much heavier and sore and swollen for like a good week or so. I think that I once weighed them and it was 1-2 lbs more each side (they are DDD's normally). So hopefully will see a decent drop this upcoming week as well.
    Still exercising, not every day but so far it's been 5 days a week. That is probably close to a record for me. LOL

    One part I'm having a hard time with is the habit of eating healthy fats. I just don't cook with oils. I have super great nonstick pans (as well as my stainless that I use for certain things) and just stick say chicken in that and I use a bit of water. No oil. I like nuts but just don't eat them most days.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  13. #31453

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    No judgement here either Christina. I am super proud of you for your grades too if it means anything!

    It honestly never bothers me when people smoke as long as they don't smoke in the house or car with kids or in my house. We have a nice place on the porch and back patio for smokers. Oh, I also don't like the ashes getting tossed all over my flowers, which DH had a bad habit of doing. He's stopped though and I got him a nice ash tray/cigarette holder to contain all the smoking trash.

    Erin

  14. #31454
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    Quote Originally Posted by daylilies View Post
    Sorry about your FIL Erin

    No judgement here, Smplyme (Christina, right? I always forget, I'm sorry)
    You got it right I'm awful with names too, so no worries!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ky'sMom View Post
    No judgement here either Christina. I am super proud of you for your grades too if it means anything!

    It honestly never bothers me when people smoke as long as they don't smoke in the house or car with kids or in my house. We have a nice place on the porch and back patio for smokers. Oh, I also don't like the ashes getting tossed all over my flowers, which DH had a bad habit of doing. He's stopped though and I got him a nice ash tray/cigarette holder to contain all the smoking trash.

    Erin
    It does Erin, thank you Most of the people I know are just like "Eh, I knew you could". It's fantastic that they *think* I am just that smart, but really I don't feel it and doubt myself regularly. DH and I have been talking about how we are going to pay for Grad school. He's really pushing me to go for it as soon as I am done with my BA. Which should correlate to right after I start staying home. I don't think my Fed Loans will cover me going FT so I might just go PT. The thought of Grad school makes my stomach woozy....

    I feel the same way in regards to smoking as well, but people on APA tend to repeatedly bash other people who do it. Personally I don't think it's any of *my* business what other people put into their bodies. There are alot worse things. We don't smoke in the house so that helps. My mom is quitting with me, but I was unsuccessful in convincing DH.

    Things are a little crazy, but I'm loving every minute of it My Blog


  15. #31455

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    Quote Originally Posted by girlwonder View Post
    What is what? Am I sick?
    plantar fasciitis?

  16. #31456

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    Jennifer, I have always loved cats. Now since I've had both I can say cats are much less of a pain in the ass. LOL We did have one cat when I was growing up who didn't really like anyone but at least she didn't chew stuff up or pee on the floor like Bo does. I love Bo but he is kind of a pain. LOL

    I hate cigarettes, but I have no right to judge the people who do it. Like they say, hate the game, not the player.

  17. #31457
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    Christina, I forgot to say awesome grades! I really cannot imagine trying to get through school with a baby!
    And yeah Fed loans cover grad school. I only used Fed loans for mine. What program are you thinking about? Sometimes it's better to get work experience first and sometimes it doesn't matter. But sometimes when working, your job might pay for a bit of it. I usually got about one class a year paid for...so probably about 4 of the 12 classes.

    As for the smoking, I hope you can quit! I personally hate smoke.....but I have a lot of empathy for smokers. I agree I don't care much about what others ingest but that is one vice that I ingest against my will if someone else does it. My MIL is a smoker and somewhat tries to quit but hard when it's been over 40 years. She has found the e-cigs somewhat helpful and uses them up by me....cuts down on how often she runs outside to smoke as she isn't allowed in my cars or in my house (I do allow the garage even though it's attached if weather is icky....I can't make a 60 yr old stand outside when it's -4 BEFORE wind chill!). I do think that if/when she moves in with us, the smoking is going to have to stop or go down drastically. Too expensive for someone on a fixed income and we don't make it easy at our house. And I would really prefer to not have it on her clothes and such when there is a baby.
    Plus she just watched her mom pass away last summer of COPD....and it really got to her and said it was her nightmare to gasp and choke like that while dying.
    So even though I have an idea just how hard it is for her....I'm hope that we can get to quit if she she was with us....so much is habit like being on the computer and just having one after another....which she can't and doesn't do by us.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  18. #31458
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    Aww, I bet that eventually you can get Bo to stop peeing on the floor. Most dogs are usually pretty good once they are officially housebroken. Is he doing the same spots? If so, get some natures miracle....that will remove the smell and he will stop going there. It's hard once they get that scent, they will go to the same places.

    What is he chewing up? Get some of this http://www.amazon.com/Grannicks-Bitt.../dp/B00028ZMEO It works great. I was fighting with the puppy every night with chewing on my couch...I sprayed this and she stopped immediately.

    Dogs are definitely NEEDY though when it comes to attention. And being a beagle, he's even more prone. They really like people and want to be with us.
    Cosmo is super needy but she is definitely MY dog. She loves DH but she clings to me. Poogle is more equal opportunity....she just wants to be with one of us or Cosmo and wherever the action is.
    It is rare for me to sit and watch TV without one of the girls on my lap. I feel bad when I am giving one attention but not the other at the moment. OMG I cannot imagine having more than one human baby!

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  19. #31459

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    Quote Originally Posted by daylilies View Post
    plantar fasciitis?
    Oh! Of course. My heel is always hurting - walking and running hurt. Any pressure on the bottom of my foot hurts. From wikipedia: Plantar fasciitis (PF) is a painful inflammatory process of the plantar fascia, the connective tissue on the sole (bottom surface) of the foot. It is often caused by overuse of the plantar fascia or arch tendon of the foot



    "Any idiot can face a crisis; it is this day-to-day living that wears you out." -Anton Chekhov


  20. #31460
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    Quote Originally Posted by daylilies View Post
    I hate cigarettes, but I have no right to judge the people who do it. Like they say, hate the game, not the player.


    Quitting is hard and I think for those who have never smoked, it is an impossible concept to understand. They stink, they taste awful, but it is strangely (and unreasonably) satisfying. I can hardly stand the smell of DH the past couple of days. I can't even snuggle with him at night, because it stinks so bad. I didn't have this problem the last time I quit, so I hope I adjust soon. I am so incredibly proud of my mom and that's what is pushing me to stick with it more than anything. I *know* that if I faulter, she will as well. So we are doing this together!

    I have absolutely NO idea what kind of Masters I want to go for. I don't even know what I want to do I always thought I would go into accounting, but honestly I am not as gung-ho about it as I was. It just doesn't seem to interest me anymore. I have enjoyed the marketing classes I have taken though... So maybe that... Do the Fed Loans increase for a Masters program? What I could get (if I wasn't getting other aid) for my BA would not cover my schools Masters program.

    Since I'll be leaving the work force for a bit, I want to return to it wtih something substantial. At least I can say I have been doing X while I haven't been working and not just stagnating.... If that makes sense Loans scare me and I keep wondering if it will be worth it to go for my Masters. Especially with the economy the way it is, will the job I get be worth how much I'll be paying out monthly in student loan payments?!?

    Things are a little crazy, but I'm loving every minute of it My Blog


  21. #31461

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    I think further schooling is always beneficial and you should keep going! Two caveats: I don't think an Ivy League education is worth what they charge for it and I think sometimes that doctoral work can be a way to hide from real life (not all the time, just those perennial students who keep putting off writing a dissertation, etc.).

    I used to smoke like a chimney. Two packs a day for 20 years. Loved smoking. Loved it. Gave it up in 2005 and feel better about myself, my health, what other people think of me, what my house smells like, where I am spending my money, everything. Quitting is worth it. It was so hard for me that I don't ever want to even smoke one cigarette to get hooked and have to do the whole quit over again. It was terrible.

    "Any idiot can face a crisis; it is this day-to-day living that wears you out." -Anton Chekhov


  22. #31462
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    Quote Originally Posted by girlwonder View Post
    I think further schooling is always beneficial and you should keep going! Two caveats: I don't think an Ivy League education is worth what they charge for it and I think sometimes that doctoral work can be a way to hide from real life (not all the time, just those perennial students who keep putting off writing a dissertation, etc.).

    I used to smoke like a chimney. Two packs a day for 20 years. Loved smoking. Loved it. Gave it up in 2005 and feel better about myself, my health, what other people think of me, what my house smells like, where I am spending my money, everything. Quitting is worth it. It was so hard for me that I don't ever want to even smoke one cigarette to get hooked and have to do the whole quit over again. It was terrible.
    I agree with furthering education being a good thing, but long term commitments (paying back a federal loan) bothers me. I'm sure I'll do it though, can't help myself!

    I felt the same way about smoking. I don't know why, but I enjoyed it.

    Things are a little crazy, but I'm loving every minute of it My Blog


  23. #31463

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    I completely understand, but I think that a Masters is a necessity these days if you want to do anything besides clerical work or sales. The salary you make after a masters will be a lot more than you would have gotten with just a bachelor's, unless you get a masters in English Lit or similar. I deeply regret not going back to school and would go back in an instant if I could.

    "Any idiot can face a crisis; it is this day-to-day living that wears you out." -Anton Chekhov


  24. #31464
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    Quote Originally Posted by girlwonder View Post
    I completely understand, but I think that a Masters is a necessity these days if you want to do anything besides clerical work or sales. The salary you make after a masters will be a lot more than you would have gotten with just a bachelor's, unless you get a masters in English Lit or similar. I deeply regret not going back to school and would go back in an instant if I could.
    That is comforting to know. I don't really know anyone who has a BA or a Masters that can really help me to contrast the salary difference between the two. I was just reading over the Masters requirements and they offer a paid internship through the school which I think would be really beneficial for me, since I am so unsure of what I want to do!

    Things are a little crazy, but I'm loving every minute of it My Blog


  25. #31465
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    Honestly it really depends. My DH has a masters. Graduated with honors, did internships...everything. He works in a factory making less than 30K a year. He has played around with going back to school but has only tried one class in two different programs. Thank god he didn't come with a lot of loans. He paid cash for most of undergrad and lived at home. And he was a TA as a grad student and got paid for that plus tuition remission.

    My BFF has a masters. Was in a job that had nothing to do with her degrees and lost job and is unemployed right now.

    My sister doesn't have a masters but has an advanced grad level certificate. She's currently making 13 an hour working 32 hours a week. Hoping every year that the job will finally get the budget to get her 40 hours and benefits.

    I have a grad degree in information and library science. I was VERY lucky and got a job in my field that pays ok. I know for a fact that I got the job because I worked as a library assistant while I was going to grad school....the degree helped (well I didn't even quite have the degree when I got the job, I had 2 classes left) but it was the experience that snagged it for me.

    I am really kind of jaded about higher education. I don't think that it's worth spending over 50K....when so often it doesn't land a high paying job. Now certain fields it it is of course worth it. But after going through it, I have a much higher respect for tech schools....where pay after those degrees is often MORE than what many I know with grad degrees or almost grad degrees are making.

    You can get Fed loans for grad school....but it's still a loan with interest and has to be paid back. What you cannot get I think are things like Pell grants.

    Really I would just think about finishing the BA and see where you want to go career wise. It might not be necessary to get masters depending on job.

    And yes sometimes you can have too much education. It was NOT easy for my DH at first to get a job, any job because they saw his masters and thought he was too good for factory work.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  26. #31466

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    I think it depends on a lot of factors as well. I have a bachelors degree in biology. I'm sure I don't make quite as much as those in similar positions with their masters, but when I hear about their astronomical student loan payments, it makes me glad I didn't go back to school. I just payed off my undergraduate loans in december (10 years post graduation). We are currently hiring and just passed on someone with a bachelors degree but 15 years of industry experience because we could offer the applicant that is fresh out of grad school so much less money because they didn't have any real-world experience. We would have had to offer a lot more if he had spent the last few years working and getting experience vs being in school working on his masters. Yet, his salary curve will probably be sharper than someone with just an undergrad degree.
    AKA Lisa724

  27. #31467

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    I agree to wait and see. I actually am going to go back to get either a Master's or Ph.D. in....wait for it.....English Lit (American Lit and composition/rhetoric writing more specifically) LOL! But I want to be a teacher at the college level and so this is the process I must complete. I do agree though that unless you have a specific path for your career and you are willing to relocate if necesary if there are no jobs in your field in your current location, then you shouldn't pick specific majors for a Master's. My BA in English is good for me because I have a lot of options for higher education. I considered being an SLP or a special education teacher or even just a 6-12 teacher of Language Arts, but I have always wanted to teach at the college level since they get more vacation. Yeah, I am lazy like that LOL! If I got just a Master's in English it would do nothing for me at work in my current field so I have to make the commitment for the Ph.D to earn more. With just the Master's I can teach at community college and some traditional colleges but I would make the same as I'm making now. Ironically I am considering doing this as I'd rather do what I want to do and make what I make now than do the job I currently do even though it will cost me to get a Master's. I'm going to do my best to fund it with scholarships, assistantships, and grants and not take out any loans. Matter of fact, I actually refuse to take out any loans. My first choice for school is Emory, which offers a PhD program in what I want to study and it is completely free and they give you a stipend but they only accept 7-9 students per year. And even though I think I'm rather bright and confident in what I can do, I know that there are people out there brighter than I am and that over 300 people apply to this program per year. But I am going to apply anyway and if I get in I think I may be lottery playing material.

    Erin

  28. #31468
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    Good point Erin on being willing to relocate! I will say that had we been willing to move to TX, DH would have been employeed is his field. His is geophysics. But it would also have required him living out of a trailer weeks and months on end. Not a family life we wanted.
    He tried going to the tech school for nanotechnology....would have been great at it but the one teacher who taught most classes was one he didn't like or care for his style. Than he tried another local school for paralegal. Which he liked and aced the class but didn't think he would like the job environment once he learned more about it. It was just sounding too deadline/fast paced....and while he's brilliant, DH is a very slow reader.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  29. #31469
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    Erin we will all have our fingers crossed for you!

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  30. #31470

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    I was also a smoker or over 10 years so no judgement here. I feel really lucky that it was easy for me to quit. My bfp with Savana was a surprise so I quit that day. I've never even wanted to start again. Thankl goodness.

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