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Thread: Secular Confessions

  1. #28081

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    Oh yes, I totally understand your decision not to put her in that preschool. I was just saying as a hypothetical, if you did put her in.

    Go Kai! Josh won't touch most vegetables either.

  2. #28082

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbbeysMom View Post
    Thanks, but she won't be going and this isn't really something I decided lightly. I know there are people who believe in lots of things that we (meaning DH and I) don't, for many different reasons, and that's not the issue. If I could put into a science-based preschool (they exist, just not here) I would.
    I was gonna ask if there were any secular alternatives in your area AT ALL. If there are, then I think that's a good option. It's cute that Abbey has a BFF, but she'll make new friends. They're s adaptable at that age that t could be you and her mom are more attached to the idea of their friendship than they are. Bodhi has moved away from 2 "besties" and made tremendous new friendships. And when he does get to see his old bestie whom we see every couple months, they drop everything and run for each other anyway. So try not to feel too sad about this decision if you can. Abbey will be fine.

  3. #28083

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    You're completely right Myles, in fact, Abbey's super social so I don't think it would be that big of a deal, for her. But in truth, this women is definitely my best friend in TX. We hang out several times a week at playdates, and she's super smart, socially conscious, liberal-minded, and has sister issues. That's pretty much a recipe for a close friend for me, and it's very difficult to find people like that around here.



    lost our bean to Triploidy Sep 2010

  4. #28084

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    I TOTALLY get it, Molly. Like-minded folks are keepers, especially in a sea of other people who are downright offensive to you. On the bright side, you might meet someone new you really like if you branch out to another circle, be it a school or some other place where moms gather. Are there no secular schools nearby?

    Changing topic, I have to ask WWYD in this sitch. I feel almost ashamed to relate this because I can't help feel like it reflects on our parenting somehow, but ... B said "I want you and daddy to die" tonight when he was mad at me for ending bath time. I said "You don't mean that." And - almost to prove he did - he elaborated, "I want you to go away forever. I want your skin to fall off and your skeleton to come outside."

    GULP!

    Obviously, he didn't really mean it. He even had that look on his face he gets when he's trying something on for size, and watching for my reaction. But what awful, hurtful words! I got really quiet (being naked from bathing together didn't really help me seem authoritative) and explained to him that it's true, people can't come back after they die. It can't be undone (a concept I've been working on with him) and it is very sad for the people that love the person that dies. I told him I wasn't mad at him, but his words were big no-nos. Then I couldn't get him to tell me where he'd heard all those things. He insisted it came from him. DH came home and talked to him some more about his words. Apparently, he'd heard all those things from a younger girl who does have a big brother.

    I tried as much as possible to make it a teachable moment, but I'm not sure I hit all the key things in an appropriate response.

    I'm hitting Post now because I'm falling asleep right now. Talk tomorrow, I hope.
    Last edited by demigraf; 02-07-2012 at 09:57 AM.

  5. #28085
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    Myles, I think you handled that situation very well. I can remember when I was about 5 or 6 and telling my dad that I hated him because he wouldn't let me have a Reeses Peanut Buttercup from the store. His reply was in a very sad tone and he just simply said, "Join the club." That shocked the nasty words out of me. I never did tell anyone that I hated them after that.

    I have to tell y'all 2 funny things that happened when we were at my nephew's birthday party this past weekend. The first one was when we got to SIL's house, there were lots of kids there and some of them hadn't seen us in a long while, so they'd never met Cash before. One little boy said to Travis, "Is that your brother?" Travis nodded and the little boy said, "Is he new?" LOL. And the second thing was when my SIL's FIL was leaving the party, he rubbed Travis' hair and said, "Goodbye, Reuben!" (Reuben is my nephew and it was his party and his Grandad that called Travis Reuben!) Anyone probably could make that mistake since they both have the same shaped head and same color hair (but Travis is quite a bit taller and slimmer) but I think what made it funny/awkward was that SIL's FIL is never around and only comes to parties to make it appear like he really cares about the family, so for him to say goodbye to the birthday boy who was not the birthday boy had everyone snickering when he left.

    I have a doctor's appointment in an hour. I think I pulled a muscle on Saturday night when I was out. I had a violent coughing fit that lasted like 2 minutes (which seemed like 20 minutes at the time when I was grasping for breath) and the next morning, my side was killing me. It's gotten worse now, so I'm hoping the doctor can tell me what to do about it.

    Speaking of going out with the mummy friends, I had a good time. The women are all very different to me (and a tad bit on the snobbish side) but it was nice chatting with people who have kids in the same school and just being out having wine and cocktails was fun. I did feel a little like the odd one out as they ALL drive black Land Rovers but one who drives one of those fancy Cadillac cars with the big grills on the front and I have a little black Ford Fusion. But they accepted me in to their little clique, so we'll see how it goes from here.

  6. #28086

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    Myles, I think 3 is the age of starting the long process of testing social boundaries and authority. I think your explanation covered both of those elements, and it would have been hard for me not to be shocked and sad too. I really question whether they understand death in any significant way at 3. I know I didn't at all, until much later.

    Abbey has said "I don't like you" to DH a few times, and his general reaction is to pretend to be sad until she relents, or tickle her until she changes her mind. I don't know if it's the 'right' thing to do, but on some level it's teaching her that her words can have effect on people's feelings and he'll always love her anyway. Maybe it's a bad reflection on our parenting that she's way more sheltered from concepts like 'hate' and 'death', but I figure she has her whole life to learn.

    In a similar but less dark story, Abbey started to use the word "sucks" (that maybe came from me ). I told her it was a no-no word and that she could say "stinks" or "not good", but every once in a while she gets quiet, turns to me and says softly "Mommy, can I please say sucks?"



    lost our bean to Triploidy Sep 2010

  7. #28087

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    Quote Originally Posted by demigraf View Post
    I TOTALLY get it, Molly. Like-minded folks are keepers, especially in a sea of other people who are downright offensive to you. On the bright side, you might meet someone new you really like if you branch out to another circle, be it a school or some other place where moms gather. Are there no secular schools nearby?

    Changing topic, I have to ask WWYD in this sitch. I feel almost ashamed to relate this because I can't help feel like it reflects on our parenting somehow, but ... B said "I want you and daddy to die" tonight when he was mad at me for ending bath time. I said "You don't mean that." And - almost to prove he did - he elaborated, I want you to go away forever. I want your skin to fall off and your skeleton to come outside."

    GULP!

    Obviously, he didn't really mean it. He even had that look on his face he gets when he's trying something on for size, and watching to my reaction. But what awful, hurtful words! I got really quiet (being naked since we were bathing together didn't help me
    seem authoritative) and explained to him that it's true, people can't come back after they die. It can't be undone (a concept I've been working on with him) and it is very sad for the people that love the person that dies. I told him I wasn't mad at him, but his words were big no-nos. Then I couldn't get him to tell me where he'd heard all those things. He insisted it came from him. DH came home and talked to him some more about his words. Apparently, he'd heard all those things from a younger girl who does have a big brother.

    I tried as much as possible to make it a teachable moment, but I'm not sure I hit all the key things in an appropriate response.

    I'm hitting Post now because I'm falling asleep right now. Talk tomorrow, I hope.
    Ky used to say things like that to me. He told me he hated me and that he wished I were dead, also that I was the meanest mommy in the world. I just told him that regardless of what he said I loved him and wanted the best for him so he was going to do whatever it is I asked of him or that I told him he needed to do, since these outbursts only occurred during times he didn't want to listen or wanted to do something that I did not want him to do.

    I think all kids do this sort of thing, though some are more shocking than others. FWIW, one of my nephews, the one I mentioned who has a 156 IQ was a very strange toddler and I remember watching him when he was around 3.5 years old and he just told me out of the blue that he wished his mother would die. He looked really upset, like he had been thinking about something she did and I told him how his mother loved him and that he would be sad if she were dead. But he was adamant that he wanted her to die. It was pretty freaky to me to be honest but I remembered later that at the time his mom had been having some financial problems and had left him and his older brother in the care of my mom until she could get a place and I thought, looking back, that he was just upset that he wasn't living with her anymore and that visiting her wasn't enough, but maybe I put too much into that thought. I do remember that his mom had dropped him off with me that day because she had to work and I was suppose to take him over to my mom's house. He was and still is VERY attached to his mom. She was the first person in our family who was an extended BFer and he BFd until he was 3 and was and still is just totally enamored by his mother so I think he was just upset that he didn't get to stay with her fulltime.


    Elle has started to tell me that I'm not nice. I couldn't imagine her telling me she wanted me to die or that she hated me like Ky used to. She is extremely sensitive to me and hates to disappoint me (I worry about this with her more than other things as I really have to chose my words wisely in our conversations). If she told me that she hated me she would probably burst out in tears, like she does when she says I'm not nice.

    Erin

  8. #28088

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    Ash, I just saw on FB that your doc's visit didn't help you feel any better or get you answers. Sorry to hear that! Your new mummy friends sound a lot like the mom's group I mingled with in the last town I lived in, which was extremely tony and all the moms were blond, aerobicized, were all trying to get their kids into a pricey preschool called "Seedlings" and drove huge honkin' SUVs. DH used to call them "The Interchangeables". Mean, we know.

    Speaking of FB, a high school friend with a son B's age posted this as her status (in almost mocking contrast to my Bodhi story from last night): "A's latest daily request, 'Mommy, don't go anywhere. Stay with me all of my life. I don't want you to die.' Gulp." Boy do I feel loved. ;) We both "gulped" for completely opposite reasons!

  9. #28089

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    Erin, bless that little boy's mom. That's awesome she BF'd for so long. I also felt very freaked out when Bodhi was saying those things too. Like, for a split second, I heard twisted music in my head and started picturing scenes from The Bad Seed. When I replay the tape in my head, though, what I also remember is his voice sounding like he knew he was saying the exact opposite of what he meant. Very similar to times when I'm trying to distract him from a tantrum with a really enticing toy, and he really wants it, but he's not quite done having his big blow-out. So he makes a really big show of not wanting the toy, but I can tell he really doesn't mean it. He had that tone in his voice.

    Going back to an earlier topic, the universe must have had IKEA on the brain, because it sent me to the one in Palo Alto on Saturday too. For those here who aren't familiar with the IKEA store experience, let me describe it to you. It's AWESOME. And it (say it with me, Abbey) SUCKS . Two to three stories of Swedish-designed, Chinese-made Euro-style. With a cafeteria and free childcare. The stores are all designed on purpose to be like a maze, so if you don't know secret passageways and shortcuts, and just follow their layout, you must walk through every single display and every section of the store. You enter from the most expensive furniture showrooms and wind your way along arrows and escalators to the warehouse piled 30 ft high with boxed furniture and indecipherable assembly instructions, ending finally at the giant line to check out. You can go in for a lightbulb and come out 3 hours later grateful you found your way out of there before starving to death. Then you suddenly notice you left with $300 worth of home goods you didn't really need but somehow were all exactly that color you'd been looking for. (For more information, I highly recommend the essay: "IKEA! Cry of a Lost Generation" by frequent NPR commentator Sandra Tsing Loh.)

    So just imagine how many high fives I was slapping myself when we made it out in record time by walking in the "back way" from the registers. Bodhi & I cleared checkout in 30 minutes, and with $40 worth of storage bins I actually did need and only $28 worth of lampshades and unbelievably cheap light fixtures I didn't need. When your intended-to-buy to how-the-h3ll-did-this-get-in-my-cart-?!? ratio is at least 1:1, it's a good trip.

    Then I got home and found out the storage bins were the wrong size for the shelf they were meant for. The universe wants me to go back to IKEA, I guess.

    In the store's defense, though, I recently found some floating shelves from them at a garage sale, but they were missing some hardware. I called them to see if I could just buy the parts. The girl on the phone was super helpful, making sure I knew exactly the part number and quantity I was ordering and they ended up shipping them to me for free, no questions asked. Go, IKEA!
    Last edited by demigraf; 02-07-2012 at 10:40 AM.

  10. #28090

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    Oh, and also again with FB and IKEA, my friend recently posted a picture of her baby with a really pissy expression on her face, sitting in a pile of MDF wood table and chair legs, and her caption was "Because you're never too young to be frustrated by IKEA".


    BTW, I loved that pic, L. Maiya is so big now, at least from behind. I haven't seen her since she & baby S were practically newborns.
    Last edited by demigraf; 02-07-2012 at 10:32 AM.

  11. #28091
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    LOL That is Ikea! DH HATES that store. Course the one we would go two is next to the Mall of American in the Twin Cities and we only would do that on a Saturday afternoon since it's about a 90 minute drive in good traffic. And that is when everyone takes their crabby babies/toddlers/children with them and also goes there. And it's definitely a maze! That said we really like the bookshelf we got there, it's pretty good quality and we got a nightstand for the guest room pretty cheap. Thankfully for us, most of the stuff there isn't our style so we can go in knowing we want a basic bookshelf and come out with just that.

    So did anyone else when little say I hate you or I don't like you to their parents? I know DH and I did and both our moms replied that they didn't like us much right now either. Can definitely see a change in parenting styles from back than to current lines of thought. I know grandma said told my MIL that if DH bites and doesn't stop, bite him back. Um wow.
    I know same grandma told her kids (my MIL and her two brothers) that they were so naughty they were going to the orphange and even packed them suitcases and pretended to be on the phone with the orphange. MIL and her brother were just talking about that few weeks ago when visiting me. Sad how upsetting and devasted they were at the time (1950's) but found it funny now.
    I said, NOBODY ever better say that to my child....especially being that he/she will be adopted and that alone will bring a different set of issues. They agreed though that grandma was wrong to do that.

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  12. #28092

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    I hate IKEA!
    I know, it doesn't help that the only time we went was right before school started, so the place was taken over by college age kids. It's also that the layout is a nightmare for me.

    Josh has said some scary things re: hating me and death before. I try to tell myself he doesn't understand the gravity of what he was saying. The hardest thing was when we had to put one of our cats to sleep a year ago and he kept saying he didn't miss George and he was glad he was dead. That must have been the denial phase because pretty soon he was saying he missed George (he still does, in fact when we draw pictures of the family and our 2 living cats he still wants to include George, so that makes me feel better but also sad for him)

    This morning Josh asked me, "Can people change jobs? I mean, if you're like, a hair dresser man and you want to do something else, can you?" (I thought it was funny he picked a hair dresser as an example, not sure where he got that from)

    I said yes, people often change jobs, why do you ask?

    "Because I want daddy to go get a job where he gets home in the day time." DH often gets home after dark, and sometimes even after Josh is in bed.
    I explained to him that daddy is a good worker for Comcast and he likes what he does and it makes good money for us and that it would take a lot of time for him to go back to school and learn something else. But it made me sad that Josh is noticing the lack of time DH can spend with him.

  13. #28093

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    I'm not sure about when I was young but I'm pretty sure I said "I hate you" to my mom at least a couple times growing up. I'm pretty sure she just tried to pretend it didn't bother her (although being a mother now I can imagine it probably broke her heart)

    There's some quote out there, something like "if you don't hate me at least once in your life I'm not doing my job right"

  14. #28094
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    So did you all see that another at Komen resigned?

    And this:

    A three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled 2-1 that a lower court judge correctly interpreted the U.S. Constitution when he declared in 2010 that Proposition 8 was a violation of the civil rights of gays and lesbians.
    "Proposition 8 serves no purpose, and has no effect, other than to lessen the status and human dignity of gays and lesbians in California, and to officially reclassify their relationships and families as inferior to those of opposite-sex couples," said Judge Stephen Reinhardt in the majority opinion. "The Constitution simply does not allow for 'laws of this sort'."

    Jennifer, 35, DH 36

  15. #28095

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    Yes, yay to both of those things, Jen. However, knowing the rabid Prop 8-ers I run into once in awhile, they will not be satisfied with the rulings of 4 separate judges and will dismiss what they say as liberal bias. It's a huge waste of everybody's time and money just for them to advance an agenda based on fear and hate.

  16. #28096
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    I'm thinking maybe I'll start posting in here more often. That is, if you all don't mind.

    **Lizzo**

  17. #28097

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inca View Post
    I'm thinking maybe I'll start posting in here more often. That is, if you all don't mind.
    I was thinking the same thing..............
    AKA Lisa724

  18. #28098
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    Okay, so I love Ikea. In the general realm of MDF based, home assembly products, I find them to be the easiest to deal with. Also, Swedish Meatballs = YUM!!!

    I think that we might cross the 'I hate you' threshold sooner rather than later. The kid has taken to saying 'Go away, Mama!' or 'Go away, Daddy' when we ask her to stop whatever shenanigans she's up to. And once, DH told her that he is not talking to her because she's mean to him. When he went to her the next time, she said 'I'm not talking to you, Daddy' and walked off to the bathroom and stood under the pedestal sink! That one is gonna have a mouth on her. I just know it.

    For anyone in need of a laugh: http://smart*****estrashybooks.com/b...-guest-review/ (read the author's response as well). Romance is just not my thing, but I am sorely tempted to get this book. So APA is censoring the URL; just put the 5 letter word that rhymes with witch instead of the *****.
    Last edited by Suja; 02-07-2012 at 12:46 PM.

  19. #28099
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inca View Post
    I'm thinking maybe I'll start posting in here more often. That is, if you all don't mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by MashedUp View Post
    I was thinking the same thing..............
    Nice to see y'all here; come on in, girls; the water's just fine!

    Travis has never said he doesn't like me, but if he doesn't like that I'm scolding him because of his naughtiness, he tries to turn it around on me and says stuff like, "You are a naughty boy, mummy; you will go on that naughty step if you do that again..." and he'll say things like, "Don't say those things to me" when I say to him that I'll put him on the naughty step if he gets another warning for pushing Cash, etc.

    I have never really enjoyed Ikea. We go every now and then and it's ok at first, but I'm usually hungry half way through and just want to go. I do like their designs, though. I like sitting in their little fake rooms and chilling. There were some commercials that aired here once of husbands and wives arguing in each of the fake rooms and saying something about how real they make the rooms feel, but I think they stopped showing them because people complained about seeing couples arguing on TV. LOL.

  20. #28100
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    I'm not very good at Net's, but I'll try to keep up. It's either, it moves too fast and I have no idea what everyone is talking about, or the other way around it's so slow I end up just talking to myself.

    **Lizzo**

  21. #28101
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    You can always just SCUBJA, Inca! (Myles' came up with that; it's "still catching up but jumping in anyway).

  22. #28102

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    Since I haven't posted in here before, I figure I'll introduce myself. I'm Lisa. I'm an atheist. I've got two kiddos, Macie will be 3 in May and Asher will be 1 in May. I'll do my best to keep up with this thread as well
    AKA Lisa724

  23. #28103
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    Welcome, Lisa! Your little ones are so cute! My older son is a May baby as well; he'll be 4 this year.

  24. #28104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inca View Post
    I'm not very good at Net's, but I'll try to keep up. It's either, it moves too fast and I have no idea what everyone is talking about, or the other way around it's so slow I end up just talking to myself.
    Welcome! It can get a little hectic at times, and a little slow on the weekends, but mostly, we don't really try to catch up on *everything*.

    Welcome, Lisa! Your LOs are adorable!

  25. #28105
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    Scubja! That's good!

    I'm sure most of you know me from around the boards but I'll introduce myself anyways.

    I'm Liz! I've got two little ones, Remy who will be 4 in April and Seren who will be 4 months old soon. Although I hate labels, I probably identify most with Agnostic with a little bit of Buddhist thrown in for good measure.

    **Lizzo**

  26. #28106

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    Thank you
    AKA Lisa724

  27. #28107
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    3andMe is offline Every day is a gift. It's just... does it have to be a pair of socks? Hopelessly Devoted
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    It can be really hard to keep up with this NET, even with those who are very regular posters. Just jump in whenever you feel like it, post whatever you want, don't worry about trying to respond to everything because it will drive you crazy if you are worried about leaving something/someone out, and join in on whatever is interesting or talk about something new.

    Mylah, I think you handled Bodhi's conversation very well, although I'm sure it must have been disturbing. That was pretty graphic. I know that children do not have a good concept of death until quite a bit later, and it is still pretty vague as a concept even when it is present in front of them. I had a pet bunny that died when I was about 5 and I dug it up a month after it was buried to make sure it was still dead and I remember seeing what it looked like, partially decomposed. That probably helped me realize that death was not reversible.

    My twins talked about me/us dying recently, too, although it wasn't in anger. DD said she wanted to remind me that she liked going on airplane rides and would like to travel by plane soon again. This was at bedtime, after I finished reading the bedtime story (nothing to do with planes). DS added, "and I would like to visit Iceland, among other places."

    I replied that I liked traveling very much, too, but it cost a lot of money and we needed to save up, both our vacation time and our money, so we could take another trip some time. DS thought for a minute, and then said, "Well, if you and Daddy both died, then we could have your money and we could do what we wanted with it. We could go on airplane rides and travel."

    I have no idea where they got that from. We have never discussed inheritance, and haven't read any books that talked about it. I decided to nip that in the bud. I told them that we got our money from going to work, and if we died we wouldn't be working, so no more money would be coming in. Besides, they know the laws about not being left alone, so it's not like they would just be able to go traveling around the world on their own. I did tell them that if we died, Grandma would take care of them and would make sure that they had a place to stay and weren't alone.

    DD pondered that for a minute, and then said, "Well, even if you don't have a lot of money to leave us when you die, can I at least have all of your clothes?"

    I told her yes.

    I told my mom about this story, and she remembered my sister and I arguing over who got one of her blouses when she died. So I guess what comes around, goes around. And I am pretty sure I remember telling my mom I hated her, too.

    What is more disturbing for me is this other exchange between my twins.

    DS to DD: "Why are you so mean to me?"
    DD: "Because I'm getting older and that's what happens when you get older. You get mean."
    DS: "But why do you have to be so mean to me all the time?"
    DD: "I just told you. I'm growing up."


  28. #28108
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    Ok, I had to laugh at the conversation between your twins. I wish Remy could have conversations with me like that.

    **Lizzo**

  29. #28109
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    I know I shouldn't, but I laughed a little at your post. When we were little, my mom would sometimes end up in bed, medicated, for excruciating back pain. My brother and I would sneak up on her quietly, to check see if she was breathing. Although she was groggy, mom could hear out conversations, and she said it invariably centered around how mom might in fact not be breathing, and who would take care of us after she's dead. According to her, we were sure dad would re-marry and the step mother would treat us shabbiliy, so we would discuss various aunts we liked as our options for where to live.

    On the topic of getting mean when you grow up. I was listening to the computer guys on the local public radio station, and they were discussing whatever happened to Google and it's motto 'Don't be evil' (especially in light of the concerns raised by its recent privacy policy changes). The answer basically boiled down to 'They've grown up!'. Your kids' conversation reminded me of that.

  30. #28110
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    3andMe is offline Every day is a gift. It's just... does it have to be a pair of socks? Hopelessly Devoted
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suja View Post
    For anyone in need of a laugh: http://smart*****estrashybooks.com/b...-guest-review/ (read the author's response as well). Romance is just not my thing, but I am sorely tempted to get this book. So APA is censoring the URL; just put the 5 letter word that rhymes with witch instead of the *****.
    Okay, that is just freaking hilarious!!!!!

    And I'm embarrassed to admit that review sounds vaguely familiar. I don't think I've read the actual book being reviewed, but I think I might have read something else in that series.

    #7: Two chapters after unironically encouraging the heroine to buy the pink “baby on board” t-shirt, the heroine unironically wears it. With some snug fittin’ maternity jeans. Mmmmm. Sex-AY. The hero unironically pitches a tent.
    Hee hee hee


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