Secular Confessions

Travis makes pretend guns all the time with Lego; I think he got the idea off a Batman cartoon or something. He and his cousins like to pretend to shoot 'baddies.' They'll probably never see a real gun in their lives, though, since no one really has them....well, actually, there is a big museum here in Leeds called the Royal Armouries where there is all kinds of weapons on display, so they'll seem them in that context. I don't mind the gun play since I know there's no way they'll ever be around a real gun. And for some reason, it just seems like what boys do.

The closest thing we have that resembles a gun is a Buzz Lightyear water blaster bath toy. Right now Gilly doesn't play guns at all. I am sure that will change once he's in school. He's never really seen anything that has guns, in shows or cartoons. We will teach him that guns are serious things, definitely not toys. My dh is a boy scout leader and a NRA instructor, so I am sure G will be exposed to guns. I want G to understand and respect them. I personally don't like guns, they actually scare me. My dh has offered me to take a course to learn how to shoot. Doesn't interest me at all.

Ashley, regarding the nekky bits, I have had to have the talk with Gilly about what ever body parts are covered at the swimming pool are private and not to be shown to people. G used to LOVE and NEED naked time every day, now he prefers to be dressed. When we were pting he was naked 98% of the time!!

Thanks, everyone, on your input on the nakey issue. Do y'all think it would be wise of me to forbid him to be naked in front of anyone else except family, like, when they have play dates to make sure they aren't stripping off and being silly playing dress up? I think the reason T probably did what he did at school today was because his friend S was doing it as well; whereas, he's been naked plenty in front of just his cousins and stuff and never done anything like that. (FYI, when they were all naked was at my SIL's house when she had them all over for a play date. I don't think I'd let someone else's kid strip off at my house; well, anyone other than my nephews).

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Originally Posted by Cosmosmom

I agree with this. I am so lucky to have had a pretty dang fantastic childhood with two parents who really wanted and loved us and made us/family priority. I have a few complaints and know my mom isn't quite perfect but when I can forget any small flaws when I think about her childhood....she witnessed her mom (that she loved a lot) being shot and killed at the age of 13 and pretty much ended up being like a mom to her 5 yr old sister. I think the world of my mom.

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Jennifer, I didn't know that about your mom. What happened? How awful. :sad:

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Originally Posted by demigraf

I just re-read my phrasing above and think it might have misleadingly sounded like I was saying if you have a gun, you are a violent criminal, so I hope that no one took it as such.

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I didn't think that at all Myles. I guess my statement was more for those that do feel that way...or whatever negative connotation they have with kids playing with toy guns. I'd still suggest perhaps others have guns for target practice (I'd hope that if anyone does have a gun in their house for protection, they'd at least actually practice shooting it or else they might be in for a real surprise when/if they ever did have to use it) and leave it at that. I cannot recall ever talking to my kids about people having them in their homes for a specific purpose. Of course, many homes they visited had them, but I don't know that my kids even realized it. It's not like we know people that leave them out where they saw them to ask about anyway.

If they did see a gun at someone else's house, it was always during hunting season when Daddy was getting ready to go hunting with whomever we were visiting, so it was pretty self explanatory. I'd hope that anyone else would keep their guns put away when guests are over. That would seem to be the norm for me.

My husband's grandfather didn't hunt, but he did the target thing and he'd only have his out when getting ready to go to a gun club or a competition. Do people really have them out at other times?

Ash, I don't really have anything to add to the naked question. I let my kids decide for themselves when they wanted to keep clothes on outside. Some people raised eyebrows at us for allowing Bobbie & Jesi to swim naked when they were 5 and 6, but whatever. It didn't hurt anything.

And Conner has recently started streaking and doing the 'helicopter' at his sisters just to get them squealing and "ewwweeeing" at him. He thinks he's a riot. It cracks me up because I distinctly remember me & my cousins doing such things as children, but Conner has never seen anyone do those things. Where does it come from? Repressed genes? Who the heck knows.

I dunno, Ash. I'm thinking for my kids it's just a "school" rule meaning change in private while you're in school whether it's our school downstairs or outside school. Among family and friends it's a case my case for me. Like yesterday when my bff and I went to the beach the kids were running around my house naked getting ready and everyone was naked changing in the beach house after. But when Kai runs around the daycare saying, "Lookitmybutt! Lookitmybutt!" I tell him he needs to keep clothes on during school time. And yes, he does it, usually shortly after he screams at someone to get out of the bathroom while he's peeing because he needs his privacy.

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Originally Posted by demigraf

I just re-read my phrasing above and think it might have misleadingly sounded like I was saying if you have a gun, you are a violent criminal, so I hope that no one took it as such. As much as I dislike guns, I do see that the NRA is very populous and well-organized, so of course all those people can't be out to do harm. I used to have a rooommate who collected vintage guns, and he was one of the mellowest dudes you'll ever meet. I wouldn't want to stand in the way of guys like him who think they're neat and mechanically interesting. It's just that I grew up in the town that gave birth to Bloods and Crips, and the image that comes to mind when you hear "gun" is more a kid who's packing and has something to prove, than the hunter or farmer who's protecting his livestock. So that's what I meant by the fact that I "associate them with violent criminals". And I also don't think that playing with toy versions will lead to violent behavior. Heck, DH & I used to carpool together and any time someone would do something jerkish on the road, we'd pretend to vaporize them with our lasers or toss them with a tractor beam, so who's crazy now ;)? That's essentially the same thing Bodhi's doing when he makes a plays trigger finger with his hand, right?

I just struggle with finding a realistic way to talk to Bodhi about guns. We don't know any hunters, so that explanation wouldn't ring true. If people own guns around these parts, it's more likely because they feel the need to protect themselves, and I want to be able to explain to him what their rationale is for having a gun in the house, and then what our rationale is for not owning one. It gets complicated beyond his level of comprehension very quickly in my mind. L, since J seems to talk to your kids a lot about them, what have you heard him say about them?

Thanks for your thoughts on this, guys.

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I think this is me, but I don't know that I've ever heard him talking to him about them, or specifically mentioning that he talks about them. But maybe I said something about it once and it's lost in the mists of time and kids (I swear, it does something to the brain). So I just went and asked them what they thought about guns.

What did they know about them?
-Shrug.

What are they used for?
-We play games with them.

Is that all?
-They are used to kill or hurt people in wars. But they also use tanks and stuff like that.

Are they bad or good?
-I guess they're bad.

So why do you play with them?
-Well, actually, I don't know?!?!?

Has Daddy ever talked to you about guns?
-He has shown me some videos of explosions and stuff, and some tanks facing off across a grassy field, and how the army with the more powerful weapons and strategy often wins. And I saw an explosion from a tank.

(We also watch How It's Made quite a bit, and maybe there has been something about guns or bullets on there. And I read them Little House in the Prairie, which went into great detail about how to make homemade bullets and about how Pa had to face down a bear in the woods without his gun and how the gun was kept over the door. I was amazed at how much discussion there was about guns in there, but looking back on it, it was useful as far as guns being a tool and something to be treated with respect.)

Do bad people or good people use guns?
-Bad people

What about police officers? They carry guns. They have guns to help stop the bad people sometimes.
-Oh, I never thought about that.

What do you do if you find a gun?
-DON'T TOUCH IT!!!!

That's right, and go tell a grown-up.
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That last bit was definitely my doing. In any discussion about guns, I remind them if they find or see a gun, to not touch it and to go tell a grown-up. We live in a place where they could conceivably find a gun at some point.

So we have had some discussions about guns. Apparently DH has talked to our son about them a little bit more than our daughter, who doesn't know anything about these tank videos.

I personally would not discuss much about who has guns in houses or what they are used for presently, because it's very complicated and can be very emotionally loaded. It's like trying to discuss the nuances of sex with a 3-year-old who asks how babies are made. Different people can have different opinions, obviously, just like a lot of emotionally charged things. And I remember growing up thinking only bad people had guns, and then being shocked when I found a gun in our house when I was a teenager.

Still, I think that you're overthinking it. We (in this room) have given a lot of thought to how to explain different religious beliefs to our children, so it shouldn't be that hard to explain your beliefs about guns. For us, it's that some good people carry guns and only use them against bad guys, and some bad guys carry guns to hurt people (although I have really not spent any time at all talking about bad people to my kids). And some guns are just used to hunt meat for food, but guns are dangerous, and only grown-ups can touch a gun.

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Originally Posted by 3andMe

And some guns are just used to hunt meat for food, but guns are dangerous, and only grown-ups can touch a gun.

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In a nutshell, all our conversations end with this sort of comment too. Even though Conner's already bored to tears (or eyerolls) hearing it, I'll continue saying it. I repeat it to the girls too all the time. Bobbie wouldn't touch one to save her own life (she's like me) but Jesi might think she's capable. I'd hope not. But then again, if she's with Conner I'd trust her to do the right thing if they came across an unattended gun. She really is capable in many grown-up ways.

Our rule of course was always that the kids couldn't ever touch a gun, but there did come a point when Jesi expressed interest so she's shot a gun with her male cousins. I was really proud watching Rich & his brother and the care and safety they took in teaching the kids to shoot targets and clay pigeons. They all had fun (while I stood back plugging my ears and cringing with each blast). Jesi was at least 14 by that point though, if not older. And that's the only context in which she'd be allowed to handle a gun. Rich & Nate brought them out and loaded them. They'd carefully hand it to a child (teen) and after they shot it they'd take it back and reload it. They put them away after too. The only thing the kids did was actually aim and fire.

We have guns. DH likes guns and has his own small collection. He is well trained (shot at expert marksman rating before deploying) and experienced in using it so I have no concerns about him having them here, although I would feel differently if he were irresponsible about them. He does keep his handgun loaded and next to the bed, but I take that very seriously. I actually told my friend once I didn't want to invite her over with her children because we had guns out in the house and it wasn't childproofed adequately for her inquisitive two-year-old. I don't know if she thought that was a lame excuse not to have her over or not, but she didn't question me and I wouldn't have felt safe with him there. Obviously things will change when we have our own kids but for now that's the way it is. DH wants me to learn to shoot the handgun, which is not something I am particularly interested in, but when he was gone for a year and I had various unsafe experiences, I wished I did know how to use the gun.

My dad had a gun when I was growing up, which I never realized until I was around 8 or so. He always had it, but I never saw it at all during my childhood. He was a farm kid and grew up hunting. My brother had a gun as a teenager, and though he doesn't hunt, he does like guns and has one or two as collector's items. He is the most non-violent person I can think of, too.

I guess I don't think of guns as "bad" - I think of them as tools. They can be used for good or bad purposes, just like knives or poison or anything else. I read the Little House books a lot when I was growing up, and I remember how much they talk about guns. Certainly Pa's gun in those stories was their lifeline and they couldn't have survived in the middle of nowhere without it.

:hi: I haven't posted in here for a while! And when I do, it's with three paragraphs about guns! Sorry.

I meant to share a tick story. Last week DH called to me that he had found a tick on Nero and asked how to get it off. I was a little shocked, because although I remember having ticks fairly often growing up in NY, I haven't seen a tick since we moved here. I actually asked him if we even had ticks, and he told me "Of course we do." So DH went running off to the drug store for a new set of tweezers and some rubbing alcohol to remove the tick, then asked me to help hold Nero's head. N squealed and pulled away and just couldn't get it off. He asked me to look at it, and asked, "Isn't that a tick?" It certainly looked like it. After several unsuccessful attempts, DH gave up and scheduled a vet appointment for the next day. Turned out it wasn't a tick at all, but a benign cancerous growth. Poor Nero! And DH tried to take it off with tweezers - youch! The appointment wasn't a complete bust, though, because he turned out to have an ear infection and went home with antibiotics. He's a little more active since, too, and we had just put some of that down to old age so all in all I'm glad he went.

Bridget, that's awesome about Savana! I really hope the GF diet is a help, I hadn't heard of it before but it seems totally plausible. On the GF story train, my good friend here (mom to Abbey's bff) struggled for 3 years to conceive her daughter. She recently went GF to help with terrible gastro-intestinal issues and it definitely helped her, but more surprisingly she just found out she's pregnant (!) without ttc at all. Her doctor told her that many people with celiac's disease have infertility issues that disappear once gluten is removed from their diet. I'm so happy for her. :)

As far as gun play, we don't allow toy guns or gun play. I know I'm in the minority, but both my paternal grandfather and maternal grandfather accidentally shot and killed family members when they were children, 'playing' with real guns. My parents owned guns as well and it always scared me because my mom drank so much and I thought she would do something crazy or stupid while drunk. DH's family are pro-guns and the cousins leave guns laying about, which drives me crazy too.

I know it's not popular opinion here or anywhere but I really think we've evolved past needing to hunt for food (I'm a vegetarian anyway), and IMO people who hunt are just trying to connect with some primal instinct, the same way people like to watch or participate in physically fighting. I really don't understand how people are horrified when someone shoots a dog but celebrate when someone shoots a deer, but whatever.

As far as guns for 'protection' it's been proven over and over that weapons you have in your home are more likely to be used against you than against any intruder, and the statistics on kids getting ahold of weapons is horrifying. You're better off with a good alarm system, and/or a loyal/protective dog, and a can of mace.

As far as what I will teach Abbey about gun play, right now she is not allowed to use toy guns and I just say "Guns aren't toys. They are weapons that are meant to hurt or kill people." Again, not a popular opinion, but I that's what they are. A gun's sole purpose is to kill. That goes against so much of everything I want to teach my DD about what it means to respect and cherish life, I would feel like a hypocrite if I didn't disallow them in our home.

I don't want to get into a huge debate, because we obviously feel differently on the subject and I am aware neither of us is going to change the others' minds, but I disagree that a gun's sole purpose is to kill. Police officers carry guns and their primary function is as a deterrent. When they do fire their guns, the majority of time they do not shoot to kill. This is also true in the case of those who do choose to use one for self-defense.

I don't know the statistics on how likely an intruder is to kill you with your own gun, but that is strongly correlated with how well trained you are in shooting it and in defensive tactics overall. The less trained you are, the more likely that is to be the case, which is why I agree that people who don't know how to use a gun should not own one for self-defense.

I'm not a big fan of hunting, though.

Jennifer, I completely missed what you shared about your mom. That's just horrific. My heart goes out to anyone who survives something as traumatic as that.

Mandy, it's a good thing the tumor was benign. I hope Nero's ok and stays ok.

Molly, that's an awesome story about your friend who was TTC. Abbey and her little bro will have yet another little friend to play with eventually. :D

L, in case you were scratching your head over why I mentioned J, it's because I misread what you'd said about DD being negative about guns and thought it was your DH who'd been voicing his opposition to them. Thanks for sharing the transcript from your conversation with them. I'm impressed the twins used the term "strategy" in your discussion about guns. To be honest, I don't think Steve or I would frame our explanations about guns in terms of good and bad people, though. We spend a lot of energy just avoiding the phrase "good boy" and "bad boy" with him, so for consistency, I wouldn't want to divide the world into good people or bad people with fixed natures in my explanation about guns, That's one of the reasons I still puzzle over how to explain why people have them, instead of who has them. Perhaps you think I'm "overthinking it" again, but I do think Bodhi is old enough to talk simply about motives, e.g. "for hunting for food", "for hunting for fun", "for hurting others", "for making people afraid", "for making others think twice about hurting them". (It's a stepping stone to talking about strategy, you see.) I guess I just struggle, because none of those reasons are reason enough for me to want something so potentially destructive.

Guys, I just realized I should have known it wasn't realistic of me to ask for group guidance on a subject that we all clearly have varied opinions about. So I'm sorry to introduce a fiery topic. Pun intended, heh heh. At the end of the day, I don't want Bodhi to be afraid of guns (he should be more afraid of my puns), but I also don't want him to glamorize them.

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Originally Posted by 3andMe

Still, I think that you're overthinking it. We (in this room) have given a lot of thought to how to explain different religious beliefs to our children, so it shouldn't be that hard to explain your beliefs about guns.

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I'm falling asleep right now, so maybe it's delirium, but I totally didn't understand this at all. How is this topic less complex to explain than religious belief? I do agree with you that the reasons for gun ownership can be "very complicated and can be very emotionally loaded".

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Originally Posted by demigraf

I do think Bodhi is old enough to talk simply about motives, e.g. "for hunting for food", "for hunting for fun", "for hurting others", "for making people afraid", "for making others think twice about hurting them". (It's a stepping stone to talking about strategy, you see.)

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I think right there you've really boiled the various reasons down to a three-year-old level. I think L's point was, just like people have differing opinions about religious beliefs of others, people have differing opinions about gun use, and different reasons for having them. Also you could extend that to saying, since you are a secular family and a non-gun owning family, in both cases you are trying to explain the opinions of someone else that you don't share. Which can be an extremely difficult task.

DH and I both grew up around guns. My dad is a hunter and DH hunts on occasion as well. The guns were always locked up in a special room in our garage. I learned to shoot as an adult and actually enjoy shooting cans and targets at camp. I'm too much of a softie to ever shoot an animal though, unless I truly needed it to survive. Our kids will be taught gun safety as soon as they are old enough to understand and will also be taught to shoot if they are interested. All our guns are currently locked in a case in the basement that M can't get to. Soon we will invest in a locking cabinet though.

I grew up around guns, too; my dad was always hunting. We even had to take 'Hunters' Education' in 5th grade. I've never been interested in them, though. I have noticed now, since living in England, that guns make me a whole lot more nervous when we go back to the USA.

I just spent an hour where I was supposed to be cleaning talking to one of my cousins. I only have 3 boy cousins on my dad's side and B has always been my favorite. He's a struggling musician. We talked about all sorts but got to reminiscing about old times and family. We laughed about pitching a reality show to E! about our crazy southern family. I know for a fact that people would get a real kick out of our nutty family, but alas, it can only be a pipe dream. LOL.

Well, I better go clean the bathroom while Cash is still asleep. I'll catch up with y'all later.

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Originally Posted by demigraf

I'm falling asleep right now, so maybe it's delirium, but I totally didn't understand this at all. How is this topic less complex to explain than religious belief? I do agree with you that the reasons for gun ownership can be "very complicated and can be very emotionally loaded".

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I think Mandy already answered this pretty well, but what I was getting at was that we have put a lot of thought into explaining how other people may have different beliefs and practices than we do already, so it would not be that great of a leap to transfer that to some other form of belief and practice.

Molly, you aren't totally alone. I'm with you on this issue. I like the idea of being vegetarian in theory and I would be if I had to kill my own meat. Everyone I work with grew up on farms or around them (I'm not from this area) and knows how to like kill chickens and stuff. I shudder when they talk about it and they think I'm funny for being so disgusted by it. Like my boss has some pigs at his moms....and they go and pet them....and someday are going to eat them. OMG.
I just don't really like beans and I need to really be careful about protein intake after the surgery I had.

I would not allow a gun in my house. I am home alone at night a lot of times.....but I also know that I sometimes walk in my sleep. Several times in the past two years I woke up in a different bed and don't recall getting there and one night I took a semi shower in my sleep. Yeah the last thing I need is a gun in the house. I don't even think it would be safe if locked up....I could potentially undo a lock in my sleep.

Thanks for trusting us enough to share that story, Jennifer. I'm in tears and think your mom sounds pretty amazing for taking care of her sister and for having such a forgiving heart. And for raising a great daughter like you.:hugs:

:comfort: Oh Jennifer.

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Originally Posted by Gwenn

I think right there you've really boiled the various reasons down to a three-year-old level. I think L's point was, just like people have differing opinions about religious beliefs of others, people have differing opinions about gun use, and different reasons for having them. Also you could extend that to saying, since you are a secular family and a non-gun owning family, in both cases you are trying to explain the opinions of someone else that you don't share. Which can be an extremely difficult task.

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Thanks. You explained that really well. The bolded part is where I agree the most. Talking about other people's differing beliefs - while keeping respect in the equation - is not a slam dunk for me and for most people. After some thought, I realize it's harder to explain what I believe to a 3 year old than what other people do, and that's where I am looking for the most guidance. I don't think it was fair of me to ask for it in this room, where talking openly about our different opinions can get thorny and possibly hurtful.

Jennifer, that story is just incredible. How old were you when she shared her story with you?

Mylah, I don't know about everyone else but I think it's perfectly fine to ask for you to ask that in here. I feel very safe in this room and have always loved how we are all so different but respectful. I'm glad you brought it up because it's very interesting to read all the opinions. I learn a lot here from you ladies and our diverse experiences that have resulted in a wide range of opinions. Love it.

So you guys have to tell me if I'm being heartless here. Dbf's mom lives in Canada and obviously dbf lived in Hawaii for many years. I mean, it's no secret that Wisconsin is not anyone's ideal vacation spot but we are here so she comes to see us. The last time she came she wasn't here an hour (of which she complained of her flight and layover the whole time) when she started asking me if I'd ever considered moving to Arizona? Florida? Back to Hawaii? Colorado? I didn't give her any straight answers and just kept saying things like, "We'll have to where life take us". I know she hates that we live in Wisconsin and thinks it sucks. I get it. But as the conversation came to a close and dbf and I hadn't given her any indication that we had plans to move soon she sort of huffed out of the room saying, "I'm getting old you know. I won't be able to make this trip anymore."
I feel bad saying this but that pissed me off. From Canada to any of those other places she listed is still a flight with layovers if she is determined to use her miles. It's not like Wisconsin is this crazy off the grid place that she has to take a plane and then a puddle jumper and then a jeep and then walk up a dirt bath. And yes, she's getting old but she's perfectly capable of traveling. I just felt like that was a low blow to insinuate that she wouldn't visit us if we stayed here. And NOW dbf is using it. He does not love it here so he throws that in once in awhile about needing to be somewhere easy for his mom to visit. I don't get it! He thinks I'm being totally unsympathetic to the fact that she is aging. I think him and his mom are taking a cheap shot to try to motivate me to leave sooner. It's not like she's even saying for us to come live by her! In my opinon she just wants a more desirable place to visit and can't base my life decisions on that, can I?
I'm not ready to go anywhere right now. I still feel like it's too soon to leave my dad and my brother since my mom dies. We still lean on eachother pretty heavily. And if I'm totally honest, it hasn't been until very recently that I even thought I'd be spending most of my life with dbf in the first place. I could have played that card to his mom. Your son is a liar and a cheat so it makes me nervous to think about moving away from my family and losing the support that I may or may not need depending on his future actions.

Mandy, DH once tried to pull off one of Khan's nipples, thinking it's a tick! At least you guys wouldn't have done that, right?

Bridget, you're NEVER heartless. I've only ever seen you act in a kind and considerate manner, even towards people that are undeserving of it. I think it is okay to say, without bringing DBF's foibles into the mix, that you need to be in this place at this time because you need the support of your family, and they yours.

Bridget you are right. You definitely are not hard to get to. And besides that WI IS a nice state to visit. I would think that a plane right to AZ or HI would be even longer and harder. She just wants a new place to vacation in.

Myles I don't remember when I knew....probably older grade school. Just feels more like I always knew and I am somewhat removed being that I never knew either grandparent. Now I do remember when I was 13 and my mom told me that my uncle/godfather had AIDS. That made a much bigger impact/impression being that I was close to him.

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Originally Posted by Bridget

Mylah, I don't know about everyone else but I think it's perfectly fine to ask for you to ask that in here. I feel very safe in this room and have always loved how we are all so different but respectful. I'm glad you brought it up because it's very interesting to read all the opinions. I learn a lot here from you ladies and our diverse experiences that have resulted in a wide range of opinions. Love it.

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I agree with this.

And Bridget, dbf and his mom are being absolutely ridiculous. I wouldn't even discuss it. Mean me would be wanting to stay put a little longer just to piss them off. ;)

Jennifer your mom sounds like an amazing strong woman :wub:

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Originally Posted by Bridget

Mylah, I don't know about everyone else but I think it's perfectly fine to ask for you to ask that in here. I feel very safe in this room and have always loved how we are all so different but respectful. I'm glad you brought it up because it's very interesting to read all the opinions. I learn a lot here from you ladies and our diverse experiences that have resulted in a wide range of opinions. Love it.

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I agree :hugs:

Bridget I dont' think you are being heartless in the least. You can only make a move if it is best for YOUR family. Regardless of where you move she'll have to take a plane, so that argument is moot.

Bridget- your mil thinks it is easier to travel to Hawaii than Wisconsin!?! Silly. Don't move until u are ready.

Jennifer- big hugs to you. How awful for your mom. I am glad she got the chance to give u everything she missed and how lovely of you to appreciate it.

Myles- I have. I problem with anyone asking anything in here. It might get problematic in random, but here I think we can all trust each other to be thoughtful in our responses

I just got a voicemail from the vet...Cramer is doing fine! His bone was broken at the ends enough that the vet said he had to shorten it slightly to pin it together smoothly, but since he's not a flyer it won't make any difference in his life. I can't wait to hear when we can bring him home!

Myles- I meant to say I have no problem. Autocorrect over correct!