Secular Confessions

:wub: That's so cool that he signed his thank-you cards himself! What a big boy. I can't believe how our babies are reading/writing already. Conner is a bit excited about school. I feel waiting the extra year was definitely worth it. He's a lot more mature than he was in Sept. I don't think he was ready then.

I upset Bobbie because I called her out for posting on FB a long vent using the f-word numerous times...like once per sentence. It's turned into 3 long, blasting emails where she's essentially told me I suck now, I sucked then, and she hopes I find peace or whatever when I'm on my own. She said that I never talk to her or listen to her, which really grates on my nerves because I spend more time talking to her about everything in the world than I do her two sisters put together. She accused me of reading her diary when she was younger and even said I'd told her something about writing two positives for every negative thing she wrote. :eyeroll: I've never gone through my kids stuff. I've always felt like if they wanted me to know something, they'd tell me. I think the worst for me, or what's been bugging me the most, is she accused me of never praising her or talking good about her except when it makes me look good. :eyebrow: I don't know what she meant by that. I certainly don't praise her or any of my kids in any attempt to reflect well on me, and frankly it's an unfair accusation because either I'm not doing it enough OR I'm only doing it to look good. So I can't win.

I ended up writing her back and saying that we'd talk about it in person, but I'm sure she's taking that as more 'proof' that I'm ignoring her and not talking to her. I refuse to get into a long, heated email debate with her though. It's just very sad for me because I've worked so hard to make her and her siblings happy and apparently that hasn't been good enough. I don't know what else I could have done. I might have done a lot of things wrong, but one thing I'm certain of is I've been the talking parent. Talk talk talk talk all the time. And I've enjoyed it. I resent her saying I never talked to her though. It makes me wonder...where have you been?

Jennifer so happy to hear the good news about your mom!!! I know you all must be relieved.

I know I lurk a whole lot in here. I don't have as much time to post as I used to with Ky's baseball schedule but I usually check in at least 5 or 6 times a day when I am at work.

Also, I LOVE debating. I am really good at it though and like to argue, especially online where one can pull up tons and tons of information to substantiate ones point of view. I am a member of a political forum and love beating those people down with information. I don't consider myself right or left, more of in the middle so I get accused of being a liberal most of the time and a "repugnant" (LOL) some of the time. I am a center left independent politically so have more liberal leanings but I do have some conservatism as well. I also am accused of being a "racist" sometimes and there are a lot of people who everyone thinks are racist and homophobes on the board (Obama's stance on gay marriage is the big topic right now and the Trayvon Martin case and Ron Paul's stopping campaigning) but I just do it for fun and think that a lot of them have internet alter egos and they probably either aren't that way in real life and are making up things because some of the things they say are wayyyy out there. Being a part of that board though does remind me that those of us who aren't crazy and nationalistic nutsos need to make sure we keep everyone else in check because all it takes if a couple of loonies who seem like they are okay but turn out to be maniacs so it has made me obtain a healthy fear of the extremist and caused me to be more viligant in making sure I destroy their crazy ideas so that younger people who read that garbage won't be swayed into being radicals.

I don't like talking religion though with people. I find people get too mad when it comes to religion, much moreso IMO than politics because those who are staunch believers can sometimes never accept anyone else's support of non-belief since their scripture is the end all of everything so they cannot truly debate objectively since they see scripture as all knowing.

Chrissy, I hope Bobbie comes around with whatever is making her have these claims. If anything, I probably would have written her back though about how much I loved her and loved talking to her and that if she ever felt that I didn't listen, then I am sorry. Maybe you said that though and she is just being irrational. I know I was very irrational at her age.

Erin

Chrissy, Bobbie sounds like my sister at that age. She used to blame my mom for everything and everything was negative for awhile. She still is that way to an extent that she blames everyone but herself for the issues in her life. I've only just started speaking to her again after a year of the silent treatment. This time, though, I'm keeping her at a distance. I guess what I'm saying is that she's at that age, so don't take it too much to heart. I hope when you do speak to her that you'll work out what's bothering her.

Chrissy, Erin has a point. I was very irrational at that age too and I thought everything my mom did was wrong. It took me a long time to see that everything she did was out of love for me. It's my only regret, is not appreciating her sooner.

I do NOT like to debate most of the time unless I feel I am being listened to and I too often feel that people in a debate are just waiting for their chance to speak on not truly listening to the other person. My family makes fun of me because of one time when everyone was having a heated discussion at a famly Christmas and I was staying quiet. They all turned to me and asked me what I thought and I said, "I see both sides". They were all telling me what a peace loving hippy I am. lol I really can see how people would think one way or another in most situations even if I do not agree. But some people are just crazy irrational and I cannot waste my breath or get myself worked up about what they say. My cousin is a perfect example of that as he is now saying on his fb page that Obama swore himself in on the Koran and that teachers get paid to nothing. I mean that kind of crazy talk doesn't even need arguing. He's just shooting himself in the foot and offending people all over the place.

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Originally Posted by Ky'sMom

Chrissy, I hope Bobbie comes around with whatever is making her have these claims. If anything, I probably would have written her back though about how much I loved her and loved talking to her and that if she ever felt that I didn't listen, then I am sorry. Maybe you said that though and she is just being irrational. I know I was very irrational at her age.

Erin

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In one of my responses I did tell her I loved her and always wanted the best for her and still do. She ignores those comments. What I did say in my initial contact with her was that when she used the f-bomb so much, it made it difficult to feel sympathy for what was bothering her because the f-word is too distracting, especially when used so frequently. She turned that into, "...So with all this, you saying you have lost any tiny little bit of sympathy for me shouldn't hurt me. But it really does, it kills me because my MOM could say anything like that to me when I'm going through an incrediby difficult time in my life." Exact quote, italics mine.

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Originally Posted by AmeriBrit

Chrissy, Bobbie sounds like my sister at that age. She used to blame my mom for everything and everything was negative for awhile. She still is that way to an extent that she blames everyone but herself for the issues in her life. I've only just started speaking to her again after a year of the silent treatment. This time, though, I'm keeping her at a distance. I guess what I'm saying is that she's at that age, so don't take it too much to heart. I hope when you do speak to her that you'll work out what's bothering her.

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This is exactly what I'm afraid of. She's totally been blaming everyone around her for everything. Mostly me. And she's remembering things that never happened (me reading her journal, dad beating her and me screaming at her for it, me yelling at her in AZ that she was a rotten sister). It's rather alarming.

She's also frequently said she has very little to no memory of her childhood. When she recently accused me of doing something awful when she was a kid, I reminded her that she's claimed to have no childhood memories. She screamed at me that she has never said that. In fact, she's frequently said that and everyone has heard her. I swear she's so adamant about these things that she's nearly convinced me I've lost my mind. Until Jesi, Syd or Rich remember it the way I do.

Yep I definitely read more than I post. ;)

Thanks everyone! And yeah it's a big relief that at least for now it's not something we have to worry too much about.

I too lurk a bit more than I post. Sometimes I don't have the time or feel I have anything to say really.

Chrissy I can see why you are worried. Do you feel like you are seeing signs of a mood disorder? Some of those things are concerning.
It is hard being that age though.

And really you were right to point that out on FB. Especially since employers can and do check it if they can get at it and hold it against you.
My mom didn't allow us to swear and said F needed to be reserved for extremes. And that if you couldn't think of other words to use, you must not be very smart. (and I always prided myself on being a smart girl so that worked well on me). That and if we complained we were bored, her reply was only boring people get bored (meaning we should go make up something to play or read a book or whatever to entertain ourselves if needed).

I'm so sorry about Bobbie. :( If she could just see from our perspective how much you worry and care about all your kids, how much slack you cut them, she'd have an entirely different view. Like bridget, I was very blaming of my mom for everything wrong with my life. It wasn't until I struck out on my own and had to become self-reliant that I took more ownership of my actions and feelings, and took responsibility for things that happened to me. I really started to appreciate my mom & dad 100 times more after that. Bobbie will come around. I think it also matters to be able to put your social life in its own little corner. While I still had a lot of turmoil around my friendships and angst from my insecurities, it was easy to blame my parents for my feelings of inadequacy. Again, I think it takes realizing there are more important things than your social life - namely being able to pay the bills and feed yourself - that bring you rip the realization that you belong to you, and you can't blame your parents for your negative feelings.

I will only argue with people I like. I decided awhile back that I only debate with the goal of reaching another level of understanding, whether it's persuading someone else to see my POV or learning from that person in a way that changes mine. At the very least, I want to be able to say "here's my reasoned point of view, and there's your reasoned point of view, and we agree to differ along these value lines", because at least that brings 2 people closer. So if I'm going to invest in that goal by debating with someone, it's because I care, and there's a level of respect that's already there. I find it very easy to dismiss a lot of people that disagree with me. My ex-bf used to say "you just have to let stupid people be wrong a lot of the time."

I have a friend from France who talks about how debate is enjoyable and regarded as theatre, and lots of his country(wo)men do it for entertainment. That's just not me.

Hi, Dana. :hi:

Jennifer, my mom used to say that all the time about boring people getting bored too!

Chrissy she is at such a difficult age, for her, and for you :hugs: I have very little childhood memories and I believe when reading up on it one day I found that sometimes a creative mind will try to fill that void with memories that are not neccesarily accurate (i.e. a spanking becomes beating). Ever since than I have always questioned some of the memories that I do have. I never went through the "I hate my mom" phase, but I know that it is fairly normal. I did resent my mother for quite some time though.

I very rarely have anything constructive to say or anything substantial to add to a conversation so my posts are usually pointless :laugh:

Debating is pointless, unless the other person is actually listening, and they usually aren't. Sometimes I let that side get the better of me, but I try not too.

I think with Bobbie it's a horrible combination of things. She's always been a glass 1/2 empty kind of gal, and then she was assaulted 5 days after graduating high school. It's been a horrible road for her ever since and it really has been only since that time that she's been acting angry and making these horrible accusations against me. I'm trying to be patient and realize that she's acting out toward me because I'm safe, and she does have a lot of anger built up inside over that whole ordeal...but still. I'm human too and it is wearing on me.

Chrissy - Sorry Bobbie is being such a "B". I do have a mood disorder and have been known to become very irrational and emotional if I am headed down into a depressive episode. However, in a lot of ways, I think teenagers are like toddlers, making so much effort to be independent, feeling frustrated and raging because they cannot control every thing in life. You're a good mom. I know you'll figure out the right thing to do.

Jennifer, congrats on your mom's negative biopsy. Scary stuff.

Mylah - The photos you took for your mom's group fundraiser are gorgeous. I enjoy taking photos and would love to learn to be better at it. Any good sites or books you'd recommend for learning to be a better photographer?

I used to love to debate. I am an ex-fundamentalist christian and after I left the faith, I would go on forums that hosted religious debate just to argue. It was a form of therapy for me and helped me heal from a lot of the damaging attitudes that were instilled in me. Nowadays, though, I just don't care or have the interest. I'm over it.

Hey - whatever happened to the other Ashley who used to post on here? She had two daughters, Audrianna and Charlie, I think, and had lived in Alaska and Kansas City. I often wonder what happened with her.


Here is a picture of my super-cute baby, Dae. Dae is her internet code name (and her initials). Her real name is so awesome that I can't mention it online (and I don't want her to be google-able):

Attachment 8756

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Originally Posted by dana_renay

Hey - whatever happened to the other Ashley who used to post on here? She had two daughters, Audrianna and Charlie, I think, and had lived in Alaska and Kansas City. I often wonder what happened with her.

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I'm not sure if she posts on APA much, if at all, any more but she is on Facebook.

LOL Yeah I guess mom didn't like listening to kids whine about being bored. Worked though....I don't think that I hardly ever feel bored. I can be at home for days and find stuff to do or books to read.

And you said it so well what I was thinking.....it's just hard the transition where you realize that YOU are responsible for YOU as an adult. If I want to be happy *I* have to make things happen that will bring me happiness. And that life in general can just be hard sometimes. Bad stuff and bad times happen to everyone and we all have to learn to deal with it and move on. It's a lot of responsibility learning to be in charge of your own self.

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Originally Posted by missychrissy

I think with Bobbie it's a horrible combination of things. She's always been a glass 1/2 empty kind of gal, and then she was assaulted 5 days after graduating high school. It's been a horrible road for her ever since and it really has been only since that time that she's been acting angry and making these horrible accusations against me. I'm trying to be patient and realize that she's acting out toward me because I'm safe, and she does have a lot of anger built up inside over that whole ordeal...but still. I'm human too and it is wearing on me.

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This is something that did not occur to me at all. It's ok to treat you this way, because "your mom and will love her anyways" sort of mentality. It makes my heart hurt for you. One day she will realize what she is doing, and she will appreciate you SO much, I promise :hugs:

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Originally Posted by Smplyme89

Debating is pointless, unless the other person is actually listening, and they usually aren't. Sometimes I let that side get the better of me, but I try not too.

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That was the great thing about college and I miss that....the prof was there to encourage debate and listening on all sides of whatever it was (since my major was one where we talked and debated EVERYTHING). Actual learning was going on.

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Originally Posted by Smplyme89

Debating is pointless, unless the other person is actually listening, and they usually aren't.

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So. True.

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Originally Posted by Smplyme89

This is something that did not occur to me at all. It's ok to treat you this way, because "your mom and will love her anyways" sort of mentality. It makes my heart hurt for you. One day she will realize what she is doing, and she will appreciate you SO much, I promise :hugs:

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I'm certain that's what it is. She never, ever acted like that before.

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That is an awful thing for anyone to go through and it is bound to change a person. :hugs: I can't believe the light sentence though, it shows what is SO clearly wrong with our judicial system :ohno: I've seen people get worse sentences for theft and IMO what he did to her doesn't even compare :ohno:

After a little bit I'll probably edit/delete some of that post. It's not something we talk very publicly about but I figured I was eluding to it anyway I may as well tell you all what had happened to her. I don't want to make her sound like this ungrateful spoiled brat because she's not. She was never mouthy at all. The worst thing she did prior to the assault was sometimes roll her eyes at us and stomp down the hall. And even that was very rare.

Completely understandable Chrissy :hugs:

I don't think any of us ever thought she was being an ungrateful spoiled brat. It was an awful horrible thing and it beyond sucks that he didn't get punished for it. But it doesn't mean that it's ok to be like that to you. She's got to find a constructive way to deal with the anger and hurt and fear....and get control of herself back. I'm guessing that she's not stuck with any kind of therapy?

She's been continuing with therapy and really likes her therapist a lot. I'm not sure if she's going to get to see her through the summer though because it's through her college. She was supposed to have an appointment with a psychiatrist for an evaluation for anti-depressants (or whatever he/she thought necessary) but I'm not sure if she kept that appt or not.

I actually very much relate to her due to what she has gone through. I was very upset after my own childhood trauma and at that age from about 18-21, I was a very angry, irrational person who thought the world was against me. I know how difficult it is for her and I also don't think that she is ungrateful or anything like that. Just dealing with life, and it can be hard as a new adult so I completely empathize with her in that way, but as a mom I can see your side and I know how difficult and frustrating it must be to have someone see events a completely different way than what occurred, or for them to take a specific phrase or word and make it out to be something that isn't even remotely what you meant it to be when you originally spoke or wrote it my DH is notorious for doing this and it is a constant thing of his so much so that I am very much numb to it now and don't really take what he says seriously in this regard, whereas I used to mull and mull over every word I said to him, now I just feel like...forget it since he takes everything the wrong way anyway so I do know what it's like for people to do that. It is nerve wracking.

My grandma used to say the same thing about only bored people being bored and only ignorant people using any curse words because they don't have knowledge about vocabulary, but that when those of us who do have strong vocabularies use a plethora of profanities that we become stupid - being ignorant is better than being stupid since ignorant people don't know any better. I didn't want to be stupid so very rarely cursed, probably until after she passed in 2004 LOL. I didn't want her to think I was stupid. I also don't get bored very often. DH does and I tell him it is because he is a boring person (I really don't think he is though because he is the "funnest" person I know). He is one of thos people though who need a lot of stimulation to keep his attention most of the time and if it is quiet and he is in one of those moods he will be his boring, pouting self until he finds something to get into.

I also do consider debating fun. Also IRL I have debated lots of people on various subjects. I don't ever get loud though and do my best not to make people upset and very rarely have there been shouting matches or hurt feelings (at least they didn't tell me). I am not bothered easily and don't intend to sway anyone's point of view. I just like to hear what people thing (this is a reason why I listen to crazy right wing radio stations too - like Rush Limbaugh, I like to get inside people's minds, plus he is just a huge asteroid of hypocrisy and is just a hilarious character to me). I ponder a lot and can spout a lot of information all at once, like here on APA and other social technology avenues. I am also wordy IRL so can continuously ask about someone's opinion on something and not be bothered by their answers. I have had a couple co-workers though not talk to me again due to my views on a particular topic. The most vivid one I remember was when a lady from Louisiana asked me about my take on the confederate flag and I told her my view on it and one of my co-workers who was a former classmate of mine got into the conversation and he ended up having to be sent home because he was arguing with that girl so loud, his face was turning all red and his glasses were steaming up, he was what people consider the typical PC nerd geek (we worked for Comcast HSI tech support at the time). I used to call him Bill Gates because he looks like him, but man he got so upset. The lady was all loud too about it and she ended up never talking to me again because she felt that I insulted her southern ancestry, which I totally didn't want to and don't think I did but I did tell her she shouldn't ask people for their view on something if she couldn't handle it.

Erin

Chrissy :hugs: I'm still just sorry that you have to see Bobbie hurting, and she's taking it out on you.

...so now Donna Summer is the latest person being mourned on Facebook. :( How sad. I'll be listening to disco today, I think.

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Originally Posted by dana_renay

Mylah - The photos you took for your mom's group fundraiser are gorgeous. I enjoy taking photos and would love to learn to be better at it. Any good sites or books you'd recommend for learning to be a better photographer?

Here is a picture of my super-cute baby, Dae. Dae is her internet code name (and her initials). Her real name is so awesome that I can't mention it online (and I don't want her to be google-able):

Attachment 8756

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She looks very sweet and lovable. And thanks about the photos. I can't really remember any one book I read. I started taking pictures back in '91, when I borrowed my dad's SLR and took up developing B&W stuff in the darkroom. My friends were photography majors, so I just listened to them and pretended I knew what they were talking about, until I figured out what they really were talking about. I spent a lot of time in the darkroom back then. I kind of concluded I was bad at photography after knowing so many good photographers. I still enjoy it, though, and that's why I was excited to see some improvement after the fundraiser. Nowadays, I guess I keep learning from lurking in the Flickr forums.

I saw that on FB. I didn't even know Donna had cancer. How sad. And 63 (65?) is still pretty young, especially in this day and age.

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Originally Posted by demigraf

She looks very sweet and lovable. And thanks about the photos. I can't really remember any one book I read. I started taking pictures back in '91, when I borrowed my dad's SLR and took up developing B&W stuff in the darkroom. My friends were photography majors, so I just listened to them and pretended I knew what they were talking about, until I figured out what they really were talking about. I spent a lot of time in the darkroom back then. I kind of concluded I was bad at photography after knowing so many good photographers. I still enjoy it, though, and that's why I was excited to see some improvement after the fundraiser. Nowadays, I guess I keep learning from lurking in the Flickr forums.

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I agree-she's a precious one! :wub:

Bobbie's passion has been photography and art. She was convinced her art teacher hated her and she told me at one point that he said to her that she'd never make a living as an artist or some such put down like that. She posted yesterday that she learned her art teacher really had a high opinion of her work and he said wonderful things about it and gave her a B+...so, apparently it's not just be she's misunderstanding.

In the last year I've seen her black and white prints go from something that looked elementary-school-ish to my untrained eye to some that really take my breath. I'm glad she has that and enjoys it. I encourage her to pursue a career that will pay the bills from get go, but also her artistic dreams too. She can always make art, take photos and develop film until they generate enough income to quit her day job. She takes that as me telling her her dreams will never come true. I argue that no, I believe they will but sometimes those dreams take longer and in the meantime she shouldn't be wanting to live on the street begging for food. :D

You're so right, Chrissy. So right that I'm avoiding work to respond enthusiastically to you. DH & I had a really great talk about that on Sunday while we were on a Mother's Day daytrip. We totally agree... self-reliance first, then pursue your happiness. And if you can figure out the way to integrate the two, then all the better. What that means is that I don't care what Bodhi chooses to pursue with his time when he grows up, as long as he first covers his bases for survival. So that means if he wants to be a guitarist, so be it. But he still needs to figure out what will work for him to keep food on the table and take care of himself. That may mean applying himself with some rigor to a field he doesn't have any deep love for, but as long as he keeps some balance to his life and attention to his real passions, I will be happy with that.

The night before mother's day, I'd been to my friend's bachelorette (me out on the town with - among other things - 5 Russian supermodels, and my ego stayed intact. Yay, me. :P) Anyway, that night, my bachelorette friend and I had an interesting chat. She comes from a very traditional Asian home. She was asking me if I was going to put Bodhi in public school, and I told her I really liked our district and was pretty sure he'd attend school there. That somehow turned the discussion to how much demand I was going to place on his "academic excellence". I told her I planned to be casual about it. It took awhile for us to get on the same page about what I meant. To me, A's aren't necessarily a sign of exceeding expectation. To me, they just mean you've mastered what you need to move onto the next level of learning. My parents were pretty casual that way about it too - they even stopped asking to see my report cards in high school. So yeah, I want to see A's from Bodhi. But I think the difference is that she will see them as a sign of her future child's exceptionalism (she unfortunately just had a miscarriage and has no child at the moment), whereas I will just see them as proficiency. On top of that, she said she admired her older brother who told his children, "You can be a doctor, lawyer or engineer. Pick one." It was pretty clear to me by the end of the conversation that she defined success in terms of achieving in what's commonly considered a "high status" profession. I was polite, hid my strong objection to what she was saying, and just said that people will define success in their own way, and perhaps even find happiness by achieving their definition of success. (But to the poor person whose definition of success doesn't align with his definition of happiness...perhaps s/he should revisit how to define success.)

It was also interesting to see how much emphasis she unconsciously placed on her child's exceptionalism. Again, I just really want my kid to be happy. I don't care if he's ahead of the pack, although I can see the advantages. If you're happy, you're content with who you are, exceptional or not.

I was happy to hear how strongly DH agreed with me the next day. Oh, and he finally got me that "Wanderlust" airplane necklace that I'd been so sad about. That thing is way bigger than I thought it was. Kind of hard to miss it! :D

Erin, if I was as smart and eloquent as you, I'd love debating too. And I mean that. I think you are so well spoken and really know what you are talking about on a wide array of subjects. That's why we made the ITA with Erin smiley!

Chrissy, I don't see B as an ungrateful brat AT ALL. I feel sad for her angst and sad for the way she is treating you as well. I hope she gets past this sooner than later as I feel she will have a lot of regret for it and that can be very painful as well.

Mylah, I have to agree with you on just wanting my kids to be happy but of course be able to provide for themselves as well. I don't think dbf and I are *quite* on the same page on that one as he for sure defines success (and even happiness) as having a lot of money. He gets that from his mother. She is always making comments about how she wishes we made more money and had a bigger house, etc and I'm like "Wha? No way!" I don't want a bigger house. I can hardly keep this one clean!

I just want my children to be passionate about something. I want them to to crave knowledge like they do now, for the rest of their lives. I wasn't passionate about anything except partying with my friends. It got me where I am today so I don't dwell on what I could have done differently but I do hope they choose a different path.